08 Oct, 2008

Manga Recon @ Yaoi-Con 2008

By: Isaac Hale

Considering how well the new title announcements have been covered on other blogs like A Geek by Any Other Name and Boys Next Door, I’m not going to devote most of this Yaoi-Con report to new title announcements. Instead I’m going to talk about the effectiveness of the panels themselves, and my reaction as a gay male to the Yaoi-Con experience.

In terms of the panels, the Go! Comi panel with Wendy Pini and the Deux Press were definitely the most interesting. Go! Comi announced at their panel the yaoi-friendly 07-Ghost which comes from Zero-Sum, the magazine which published the infamously teasing shonen-ai manga Loveless. They also announced two new Ryo Takagi titles Get the Moon and Bran Doll. Go! Comi’s manga trailers are getting better and better too. Definitely check out their Afterschool Nightmare trailer at the Go! Comi site. I think that these are a really effective way to advertise their series. What really rocked this panel though was Wendy Pini’s presentation of her upcoming Masque of Red Death. This comic is the second western publication be Go! Comi, and is also Go! Comi’s first foray into yaoi. She and Go! Comi put together a terrific trailer, and the art she showcased for the comic was gorgeous. Wendy Pini herself was incredibly personable and funny, and had the crowd guffawing and cheering throughout the panel. I got a chance to chat with her later where she explained that she is quite ready to be defined by something other than her magnum opus ElfQuest, and that she is immensely proud of her work in Masque.


The lovely ladies of Go! Comi (center and right) and the lovely Wendy Pini (left), author of the upcoming Masque of Red Death.

Also immensely entertaining was the Deux panel. The presenter had a knack for making all of their series seem like the greatest gift to manga since Tezuka, and was humorous all the while. One thing that shocked me was Deux Press’ decision to license both a CJ Michalski title, Noodle Shop Affair and Nase Yamato’s Take Me to Heaven. I find this so fascinating because both of these titles are really pushing the age barrier between yaoi and shotacon (male x male romances including at least one underage character). It has been made explicitly clear by all companies in the yaoi publishing field that they are avoiding publishing manga with shotacon content that though technically legal since the Supreme Court ruling of Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition, is still a legally risky venture. When I asked the presenter if he was worried about a negative reaction to these titles because of how obviously young the characters look, he was quick to assure me that the characters were of age, there would be no cover edits made, and that they weren’t worried in the slightest. This struck me as odd considering 801 Media’s nervousness about Love is Like a Hurricane and Boysenberry’s ultimate decision to tone down the blush on CJ Michalski’s protagonist in the cover art of Delivery Cupid. Even in the panel where Nase Yamato showed off her gorgeous artwork and answered questions, she personally stated that she was intentionally moving beyond the younger looking characters and was putting that style behind her. Though her tastes have undoubtedly changed, the American publishers demand for manga with older characters is probably has affected her choices, even for purely business reasons. Personally I believe that censorship of artwork is unacceptable no matter if it suits your tastes or not, so I hope the best for Deux. And honestly, though the characters definitely look like they’re under 18, the manga look adorable and endearing. I’m expecting those, as well as the also announced Love Round!! by Hinako Takanaga (one of my favorite yaoi mangaka), to be high points in Deux’s developing library.


Left: The Deux Press Industry panel. Lots of exciting upcoming titles from them! Right: Nase Yamato signing copies of Pet on Duty, as well as some of her gorgeous prints.

One thing I would like to discuss is my largely negative personal experience at Yaoi-Con as a homosexual male. There were definitely some nice aspects of the Con: I wasn’t assumed to be heterosexual (as I am everywhere else) and I was definitely welcomed by all the panelists and industry staff with great warmth. Furthermore, it was just relaxing to be in a place where male x male romance was desirable as opposed to being stigmatized. Generally though, that’s where my warm fuzzies ended. Many of the cons main events–Bishonen Bingo, the Continental Bishie Brunch, the Bishonen Auction and the Bishonen Spanking Inferno–were horribly objectifying and dehumanizing. The vast majority of the con attendees were female, and sitting in the audience as a lone male as they paid money to take men back to their rooms in the Auction or get up in the Inferno to spank them felt unnerving to say the least. At worst, the events felt like a tame but still incredibly disturbing slave auction (the Bishonen Auction) to at best a cathartic reversal of power dynamics for the almost entirely female audience. Regardless, the whole experience left me feeling terribly dehumanized and objectified. Every single one of the above Main Events emphasized the power differential between the paying benefactors and the nominally gay boys they were objectifying. There were people “buying” boys in the Bishonen Auction, people buying bingo sheets in Bishonen Bingo in order to make the men publicly strip, people buying tickets in the Spanking Inferno in order to spank an adult “gay” male, or paying to be served food by subservient “gay” men in the Continental Bishie Brunch. I use quotes because part of the appeal is that all of these boys at the Con are nominally gay, though most aren’t in real life. Though I understand that it’s crucial to combat our society’s normal sexist power dynamics that objectify women so awfully, this is not, I repeat NOT, an acceptable way to do so. As a real living and breathing gay male, I felt so objectified and devalued at a convention supposedly dedicated to appreciating depictions of gay men that I doubt I will return. Being able to pick up DMP titles for $5 a pop from the June table doesn’t make up for feeling grossed out, devalued and dehumanized by the entire affair.


The two June/801 panelists (left and right), and a soon-to-be-licensed visiting mangaka (center). She’s the one who does the extras on the 801 Media dust jackets!

It’s with reservations that I recommend skipping out on Yaoi-Con. Despite the fun, the great panels, and the delightful smorgasbord of terrific and cheap yaoi manga, the event itself has many inherent problems. Even the fan-run panels (with the lovely exception of the wonderful “Misogyny & Yaoi” panel), which used to be about community issues, are now devoid of any social awareness.

In summary, the good news is that the Con shines when you enjoy the experience of a lively and excited convention dealing with a niche manga genre. It’s amazing to think that yaoi alone has its own very popular convention considering what a new phenomenon popular manga are in the United States. The panels and dealer stalls are for the most part fun, as is the fans’ enthusiasm for the genre of yaoi. Yaoi itself does not necessarily objectify gay men, and I had a lot of fun when the Con focused on the actual yaoi. What the Con can’t be forgiven for is not having any kind of discourse on issues facing the real-life gay community in its panels or events. Yaoi-Con, despite being about homosexuality, is completely devoid of social consciousness. Worse, I cannot overlook its wholesale endorsement of the objectification of gay men. Yaoi-Con, which claims to support fictional gay men (the Con’s tagline is “A celebration of Male Beauty & Passion in Anime & Manga”), is ultimately counterproductive. Rather than embrace and support real world male homosexuality as it could, Yaoi-Con fetishizes, dehumanizes and ultimately alienates gay men in the yaoi-loving community.

57 Responses to "Manga Recon @ Yaoi-Con 2008"

1 | Michelle Smith

October 8th, 2008 at 10:28 am

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I really enjoyed reading your account, Isaac. I think your final sentence really sums it up and hopefully will cause event organizers to rethink their immature approach to the situation.

2 | Isaac Hale

October 8th, 2008 at 8:27 pm

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@Michelle Smith – Thanks for the comment Michelle!

3 | Sierra

October 8th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

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I’m actually rather shocked at your descriptions, especially the “horribly objectifying and dehumanizing” part. I’ve been going to anime conventions for years, and if there’s one thing I’ve found out, it’s that everyone involved are volunteers. What you see as “objectifying and dehumanizing,” they’re enjoying.

You also make it sound like all the guys are gay and that’s what the girls expect. No one cares. Gay, straight, whatever, doesn’t make a difference. It’s not a “gay” convention. It’s a yaoi convention, and the two are very separate things despite involving two guys in their subject matter.

And it’s pretty offensive of you to make the auction sound like it’s a sex auction when as long as it’s been around, the no-sex rule has existed. People lose their “date time” and can’t get refunded their money if they try to push their date to do what he doesn’t want.

Maybe you would have had a different experience if you weren’t wasting time getting offended by a bunch of people engaging in mutually consenting fun and fan-service.

Might not be your schtick, babe, but there are a bunch of guys and girls who disagree with your preferences.

Next time try being more open-minded.

If you really are a fan of anime, go to a gen-con so you can go back to ignoring those female cosplayers while they get “exploited” in those “horribly objectifying and dehumanizing” ways you’re probably more used to.

There’s plenty of hypocrisy to go around that it should even manage to satisfy you.

4 | Nora

October 8th, 2008 at 10:32 pm

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Here’s the thing. Yaoi isn’t about gay men. It isn’t about men, period. The tagline you read as purporting to support gay men — “A celebration of Male Beauty & Passion in Anime & Manga” — actually reads quite differently to me. To me it suggests that the purpose of the con is the fantasization (which incorporates fetishization and yes, objectification) of men, for the titillation of those who find male beauty and passion sexy. Those who find male beauty and passion sexy can be men, yes. But simple demographics, not to mention the history of the genre, suggests that most of those people are going to be women.

So yaoi celebrates women’s fantasies about men — and yeah, I can see how an actual live man, straight or gay, might find these a little disturbing. Men have always found women’s sexual fantasies disturbing, since Nancy Friday’s Secret Garden books. Sexual fantasy, male or female, isn’t always tame, egalitarian, or considerate of others’ feelings. And women’s sexual fantasies, since we live in a sexist society, are inevitably going to incorporate power dynamics and reversal as part of the play. Which is why most yaoi fans recognize, even insist, that it is fantasy and must always remain so, because while it’s OK to fetishize the unreal, it’s another thing altogether to do this to live human beings. The instant real-world dynamics start to enter the game — identity politics, social consciousness, etc. — it stops being fantasy and starts being real. And frankly, at that point it stops being about women, and starts being about men.

I’m not saying you’re wrong to feel the way you did. Women’s fantasizes do get hinky when they start to incorporate other disadvantaged groups, like gay men or people of color. Sometimes straight women can cross the line into heterosexism, white women into racism, etc., and if that’s what you saw, then you’re right to call people on it. But it sounds to me as though you went to Y-con with the wrong idea as to its purpose. You were expecting a con about reality; you got fantasy. You thought it was a con about men; you got a con about women. You expected Y-con to center around you and your issues, and instead you were treated as peripheral. I understand that’s not a good feeling if you weren’t prepared for it, but that’s not the con’s fault.

5 | akeleven

October 8th, 2008 at 11:22 pm

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Issac, you do have a point. When the overwhelming majority of a group is going too far, it is hard for an individual to stand up and say “Whoa, time out!”.

The feelings you are expressing are exactly the same as many women who go to a strip club – discomfort and outrage for the participants. No matter how much everyone insists that it is just clean fun, objectifying a desire and projecting it onto a living person is risky.

I agree that Yaoi-Con needs to set some boundaries. Will someone get hurt before we learn to retreat to a safe distance? I know that one of the regular male attendees was traumatized. It was disturbing to see his fresh enjoyment of the playacting turn into wary distance in following years.

When it comes down to the nitty-gritty a good deal of the fun is turning the tables on men, whether women will admit it. That just means that our power dynamics are still out of whack. So it is a dangerous atmosphere for men.

It would be nice if Yaoi-Con could inject a little bit of humanity into the proceedings, to remind everyone that everyone has feelings that are endangered when the herd mentality takes over. Otherwise we might as well spend the con buying blow-up dolls.

I’m sure that lots of fangirls would be just as excited to be maids to “gay boys” as being served by them. I participated in the Bishie Brunch and could not enjoy it.

I much more enjoyed any opportunity to talk to men who liked yaoi as much as I did. Unfortunately none of the big events are about talking ;)

6 | toshirodragon

October 9th, 2008 at 7:49 am

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Oh you poor thing, you didn’t get your ass kissed all through Y-con for being a REAL gay man! How shocking! How remiss we all were!

Y-con isn’t about homosexuality, go to Gay Pride for that. Y-con is about celebrating Male Beauty in manga and anime. It’s about being able to get together with friends and laughing, squealing and in general forgetting that most of us live far apart and feel isolated from our families and coworkers because of our taste in manga. Sound familiar?

As far as objectifying and dehumanizing, well welcome to the female side of life, bud. Everyone of those Bishies was a volunteer, they did only what they felt comfortable doing. Most of them are repeats who have been doing this for years. Maybe you should ask them how they feel about it before you start pointing fingers at us women and calling us names.

I had to leave bingo, because I was sick but my experience there was that everyone, except you, was having fun. The same with the Brunch, the boys were NOT subservient, they were polite and friendly and more than a little bit embarrassed about their lack of finesse in serving some of the items. They were all dressed in MORE clothes than your average cocktail waitress wears and everyone of them looked like they were having fun.

7 | MangaBlog » Blog Archive » Quick updates

October 9th, 2008 at 8:15 am

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[...] Hale of Manga Recon attended Yaoi-Con, and he was disturbed by some of what he saw. On the one hand, as a gay male he was happy to be in a gay-friendly [...]

8 | Katherine Dacey

October 9th, 2008 at 8:26 am

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Ladies, let’s keep the tone civil. You may not agree with what Isaac has said here, but he’s entitled to report on his experiences, just as you’re entitled to explain to him why you feel he misunderstood the purpose of Yaoi-Con. The not-so-subtle homophobia informing some of the comments here is not acceptable, and if it escalates, I’m going to shut this thread down.

10 | kokiden/Barbara

October 9th, 2008 at 11:44 am

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At first I was taken aback by your account, Isaac, having attended Yaoicon for the first time this year. But when I thought about it, I recognized the disparity between what I enjoy about yaoi and the convention itself. Bishounen Bingo and the Bishie Auction really don’t have much to do with why I enjoy yaoi, although I really did enjoy the events themselves.

I came away from Yaoicon a bit aghast at who my fellow yaoifangirls really are–I felt that as a whole we are a shallow, unthinking group. And maybe Bishie Bingo and the Bishie Auction contributed to that impression.

I’m with you in wishing for more serious and insightful fan panels. But maybe the best thing would be for us to step up and create some of those panels, don’t you think?

11 | akeleven

October 9th, 2008 at 1:04 pm

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For the sake of discussion, and as one of the older demographic, I’ll go out on a limb and ask: (enough disempling?)

Perhaps those of us who have been through the culture upheavals of the 60’s-80’s are more sensitive to the effect of dehumanizing minorities? Is it a backlash or simple forgetting of the lessons of struggle?

It would be interesting to ask the younger ladies, in a separate environment, if they understand how a gay man would feel uncomfortable around their behavior.

We should be able to acknowledge the discomfort of the minority while we enjoy our fantasy world. Otherwise we are doomed to reenforce the cycle of suppression.

Is there a way to enjoy our fantasies in a real world setting without offending/demeaning the object of the fantasy?

12 | Mary

October 9th, 2008 at 2:24 pm

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It’s funny that many of you don’t see how Issac could find offense in this but if the roles were reversed I think people would be singing a different song. While the con may not be about the gay male experience it doesn’t mean it’s okay to have auctions of human beings and the like. Someone in another comment mentions that women who go to a strip club feel the same way but this is a ridiculous comparison. If you, as a women, choose to go to a strip club and are offended I have to wonder what you were expecting to go on there. On the other hand, it seems that Isaac didn’t expect to see the kinds of things he described going on a con.

13 | Dryope

October 9th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

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I can understand why you felt uncomfortable. I’m a yaoi fangirl and it makes *me* uncomfortable. >_>; (well, okay, boy love more than yaoi. I much prefer mushy romances to anything kinky.)

There are pockets of the yaoi community that try not to alienate the gay men amongst us. (umm, I’m sure we don’t always succeed, though. I’ve found that even admitting to reading yaoi translates for some men as “I totally want you and your guy to go at it in front of me” even though I would be terrifically traumatized if two guys really did decide they wanted me as their audience. I don’t wanna see real couples of any gender make-up gettin’ it on, that is like bein’ in people’s private business.)

So I hope you weren’t too scarred. If you decide that you’re gonna be a loner in the yaoi fandom, though, I can kinda see why. ^_^; Maybe you could volunteer to speak or something, I know one con I go to always has a “sexuality and anime/manga” panel that discusses yaoi and yuri and how they diverge from actual homosexual experiences and it seems to always be well attended. It would possibly both educate people and help the gay and lesbians in the yaoi community feel less isolated. (don’t say anything, there are plenty of lesbians in the yaoi community.)

Anyway, thank you for the insightful article. It’s always interesting to see how other people view my fandoms (even when those views are less than complimentary.)

Don’t be discouraged!

14 | Jason Thompson

October 9th, 2008 at 6:07 pm

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On the one hand, you’re totally right — Yaoi-Con is sadly typical for the genre it represents in being disinterested in actual gay men’s issues — at times, arguably contemptuous of such realities, or even homophobic (if mostly in the sense of playing up the cliched ‘forbidden love’ angle). When the first Yaoi-Con occurred, I was a bit disappointed that they didn’t do any press or publicity for San Francisco’s gay community (why else hold the con in San Francisco…?). When I got to the con and attended the press conference, I discovered that this was not a matter of neglect, it was an intentional desire to keep things “within the circle of fandom”. (And also to avoid attracting unwanted legal attention for shota pr0n…) A convention ABOUT gay men, but not really aimed AT gay men. The same argument that people have been having about yaoi for years and years.

On the other hand, to be blunt, I don’t think there’s any problem with having a space where people are expected to be objectified and “dehumanized.” There’s lots of people whose sex/romantic lives involve fetishes (frankly they’re probably the majority), and in that sense, Yaoi-Con isn’t tremendously different from a bondage convention. Or perhaps, to use a nastier analogy, a yuri convention attended by men, who have auctions to pay female attendees to make out. Or a “Yellow Fever” convention which is all about white guys fantasizing about Asian women. :/ I think yaoi is of higher quality than this, but the comparison could be drawn. I think yaoi, in general, has a de-homophobing effect, but in the short term it’s largely about appreciating (beautiful) male meat on the hoof. The reality is that sex is about objectification.

15 | Erin F.

October 9th, 2008 at 6:21 pm

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What we really need is Bara-con. You (Isaacc), me, Tina Anderson and Jason Thompson will go. Also Ed Chavez, who reads everything…

16 | Isaac Hale

October 9th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

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Nice to see all the comments! I fortunately love the critiques along with the positives. I’ll respond in more detail later, but qucikly:

@Jason: I have no beef with fetish conventions. That’s fine. The thing is, this isn’t a fetish convention. It’s advertised as a convention for those who love yaoi, not those who enjoy being served by gay men. I loved the yaoi-centric (even fetishistic) parts of the con. That’s what the con is marketed as. The events where real and nominally gay men are bought and sold are where I was shocked and revolted. These events are not marketed as Yaoi-Con’s purpose, and have nothing to do with yaoi. In short: The Con says its about yaoi, but the offensive main events are just fetishizing of real life gay men. Thanks for the super-insightful comment!

17 | Oliver

October 9th, 2008 at 9:27 pm

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I loved reading the insightful comments here. It does sound like those events at Yaoi Con are a little off the track and would be revolting for a gay attendee (both male and female).

For me, Yaoi is about going to my fave comic store, and picking out a good title to take home with me. I certainly do not need to spend $50 to spend time around rabid fans at a convention (although I would like to see the Publisher panels). Yup, I talk to no one about my love for Yaoi, and that’s how I like it. (Even among Yaoi fans, I don’t reveal my interest).

18 | Diana

October 9th, 2008 at 10:43 pm

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As a girl who attended Yaoi con 2 or 3 years ago I have to say I also felt REALLY uncomfortable at the Bishonen auction. The screaming crowd of girls who yelled at the guys on stage to kiss and touch each other, made me think of drunk men at a party requesting girls to take off their clothing. The fact that you could see the guys involved were uncomfortable only made it creepier.

That experience cast a cloud over Yaoi con for me. I understand the fantasy element to this particular convention but maybe a slightly more sensitive approach could be considered since these particular events involve real people.

19 | John T

October 9th, 2008 at 10:45 pm

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The variety of comments here is interesting, to say the least. I’ll ask the same question I asked at Mangablog.

If the defense of the sexuality that occurs in yaoi, yuri and even more mainstream mature manga is that “It’s all fantasy. It is just images on a paper. No one is actually being objectified, raped, hurt, etc.”

So if that fantasy is acted out at a con, is it still “just fantasy”? Where does it cross the line?

20 | Yaoi in the Library « Teenagers reading?

October 9th, 2008 at 11:39 pm

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[...] Issac (2008) Manga Recon @ Yaoi-Con 2008, 8 [...]

21 | Tina Anderson

October 10th, 2008 at 9:37 am

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I’ve been asked to comment here by various people, and why—I have no idea. ^_^’ I will comment though, before anyone starts wagging fingers and telling Isaac – what did you expect from those fangirls with their entitlement… I hate that crap.

Enjoy your fifteen minutes of blog-celebrity Isaac. ^_-

There are two issues here—and the heart of resistance to your opinion derives solely from fen unable to separate the genre from the convention [and why should they, right?]. Of course we as fans have to, because in my opinion the con has strayed somewhat from its actual tag line: ‘a celebration of male beauty – IN ANIME AND MANGA’.

1. Do gay male fans have the right to judge and demand consideration from yaoi and its fans?

NO.

Yaoi was conceived by women creating erotic fiction, comics, and art that allowed them to explore traditional female fantasies devoid of female characters. The genre is meant to bar them from judgment by men [gay or straight] about their fantasies. The driving force behind BL stories is not the men involved, but the relationships, sex, and romance—and because it involves only men, does not make it gay. In other words—if there were a third-gender out there that was neither male nor female, yaoi might very well be about that third-gender. Women didn’t gather round and create yaoi because they said – OMG gay men are hot, let’s fetishize them–[seriously, more than half of yaoi being made STILL does not have decidedly gay characters ^_^’] In a nutshell, feminine fantasy exploration without females is what yaoi is all about–and no, fans of it will not and do not consider the gay male lifestyle—why should they?

Next, [here goes my chances of ever being a guest ^_^]

There’s a reason I don’t like RL slash; it involves real people. :/ By having a bishounen bingo and bishounen auctions, Yaoicon forfeits its right to the ‘it’s all fantasy’ defense. They’ve drifted from the realm of ‘men in ANIME AND MANGA’ and into objectifying ‘real men’.

If Isaac had gone to Yaoicon and come back butthurt because he found tons of objectifying and unrealistic art, fiction, and animation—then I’d say ‘it ain’t about you, keep walking’. That’s not what bothered him—what bothered him was seeing gay men acting like cheap props for the entertainment of women. [I won’t go into what drives these gay boys to participate—not my scandal, let a gay male blogger handle that one] but regardless, it’s bound to alienate a gay male yaoi fan who’s come to this fandom because he enjoys the comics and films, even if he’s not ready to admit it’s a very feminine genre.

Isaac, I think you have a grasp that yaoi isn’t about gay men; the main focus is porn, romance, and angst without female characters – yaoi is feminine in its concept and construct [there’s no plot differences between it and the typical tropes of get romance/porn/drama—there’s just no girls.] Feel free to enjoy at your leisure, but don’t expect it to reflect real gay life or gay male sensibilities. However, I think you have every right to expect Yaoicon to consider gay male fans by either A – changing their programming, or B – shutting men out of getting memberships [the way many Japanese BL only events have done in the past].

*ps – if it makes you feel any better, in Japan there are more gay mangaka making their own style of ‘yaoi’, but they’re regulated to selling their works on ‘Ladies Day’ at Comiket. Perhaps if these men can enact change and start organizing more profitable ‘man love’ events, then maybe someone in America can make a ‘yaoi’ convention that manages to keep RL objectification out of its programming. ^_^

22 | Erica Friedman

October 10th, 2008 at 12:42 pm

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Isaac, as a lesbian fan of Yuri manga, of course I completely understand your perspective. So much so that I find myself these days defining “Yuri” as stories with lesbian content, but no lesbian identity.

One of the many reasons I founded Yuricon was specifically to combat this issue – with a staff that has a really reasonable representation of GLBTI members, as well as a nice mix of straight men and women, we find it very easy to welcome all people without pandering to stereotypes.

In fact, I have gone so far as to reject both staff applications and memberships when the comment was something like, “I don’t mind if two chicks kiss in front of me.” It was clear that the person completely missed the point of the event as a celebration of anime and manga and was instead looking for a public experience focused on titillation. (Yaoi manga scholar Akiko Mizoguchi has talked about how Yaoi as just that kind of experience for straight women. It’s not more about gay men, really, than a lesbian porn DVD is about lesbians. )

So, sincerely, I feel for you. Please feel free to join us at any Yuricon event – where, because our audience enjoys Yaoi as well, we do not diss it, or tolerate any dehumanization of any sexual orientation or gender choice.

Cheers,

Erica

Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu!
http://okazu.blogspot.com

23 | Expectations « Precocious Curmudgeon

October 10th, 2008 at 1:50 pm

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[...] davidpwelsh @ 12:50 pm After some predictable, anonymous sniping, the discussion that follows Isaac Hale’s post on Yaoi Con turns interesting, with contributions from the likes of Jason Thompson, Tina Anderson and Erica [...]

24 | Isaac Hale

October 10th, 2008 at 3:30 pm

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@Tina Anderson – Wow! Thanks Tina! Your response is almost as long as my rant!

Thanks for reminding me to clarify: This post is not a complaint about gay perspectives being left out of yaoi. I expect that. Yaoi is primarily a genre for women by women. Being surrounded by heterosexual women at the Con was neither shocking nor bothersome. When the Con crossed the line from fantasy to reality though, then I became disturbed.

I like both of your solutions. I can’t speak for anyone else, but Yaoi-Con should either shape up, or advertise itself for what it’s becoming: a fetishizing of both fantasy and real life male homosexuality. And trust me, few gay men would be interested in attending the latter.

-Isaac

25 | Christopher Butcher

October 10th, 2008 at 7:42 pm

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“And trust me, few gay men would be interested in attending the latter.”

Well, there’s always narcissists.

Meanwhile, I have a feeling you just had your eyes opened to what yaoi fandom really is. Sorry it was so shocking for you, but honestly, the fandom has as much to do with the actual work as the work has to do with actual gay people: not much, compadre.

I also think that, aside from the learning experience, there’s a certain amount of naivete on your part: you went to a convention whose primary purpose is sexually defined, and then were surprised to encounter a heavily sexualized experience. It’s a con about fantasy-dudes that fuck, and it had real life fantasy dudes who fucked. It’s akin to going to a baseball card convention and being upset that there was a baseball player there. A sort of “I only go for the _cards_ and the way those people demanded _autographs_ from him ruined the hobby.” I mean, sure, you win on semantics, but that’s not really _winning_.

Anyway, I’m gay (hi!) and have said dozens of contentious things about how the gay identity is treated by yaoi and its fans. But yaoi-con is pretty clearly a porn convention for women, with _all_that_entails_. It’d be nice if they bothered to advertise it that way, but it’s clear why they didn’t. And honestly, I understand your reaction, I think that the vast majority of yaoi fans I encounter could stand to learn some basic civics let alone what you’re calling for, but… dude. It’s Yaoi Con.

Best,

- Chris

26 | Isaac Hale

October 11th, 2008 at 3:28 am

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@Christopher Butcher

Thanks Chris, but I don’t really think it was naive. There’s a difference between a baseball player doing signatures and auctioning him off and publicly spanking him. Just a wee bit. The Con is about yaoi- a genre by women for women about illustrated men and their passion for one another. Auctioning off real men at the event to an auditorium of money waving fangirls is a whole different ballgame.

27 | there it is, plain as daylight. » I am a font of… yaoi?

October 11th, 2008 at 11:01 am

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[...] of yaoi, I followed Brigid Alverson’s link to Isaac Hale’s post about his experiences at Yaoi-Con, and I was pretty disturbed by some of the responses he received in comments. While I can [...]

28 | Diana

October 11th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

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“1. Do gay male fans have the right to judge and demand consideration from yaoi and its fans?

NO. ”

However woman can and do “judge and demand consideration” at a straight male’s fantasy of women and how they are portrayed and objectified. But gay guys aren’t allowed the same consideration for a woman’s fantasy?

It’s like some odd chain of smaller and smaller disenfranchise groups of people picking on each other.

I’ve always felt that at it’s core yaoi could benefit from both a male and female point of view as to be honest it IS a genre about two guys having sex and or liking each other and who better to talk to about it then um gay guys. But sadly this doesn’t appear to be the case. It’s a shame.

29 | Tina Anderson

October 12th, 2008 at 4:41 pm

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@Diana – Hi Diana, this is the part where I call foul.

You’re speaking from your own opinion here in that YOU think ‘yaoi’ can benefit from both genders—the sad truth is, your opinion doesn’t change what YAOI is. ^_^; and because of that, NO – gay men still don’t have the right to demand some form of social recognition for fantasy anime and manga created by women, for women.

You say: However woman can and do “judge and demand consideration” at a straight male’s fantasy of women and how they are portrayed and objectified.

With all due respect, I’ve never come to a hentai site or written to any sploogie-porn comiker making erotic comics or fiction for men by men–demanding they take my gender into consideration. ^_^ If these men want to create and read about unrealistic scenarios with fake women, more power to them! I don’t know of too many female fans of erotic hentai for men, who’ve complained, can you give me examples?

However, if you comments relates to real content providers like Playboy or SpikeTV, or strip clubs and pornography films, then you’ve left the building in terms of what we’re talking about here – which is a genre of erotic comics for a specific gender. ^_^
Now, if you plan to cite women comics fans in the blogsphere who expect less sexism and objectification in their superhero comics–again, that’s different. No where do these companies come out and say, ‘DC Comics: for men by men’ or ‘Marvel’s X-Men: Comics for Men.’ and until they do publicly exclude women, then they must consider what all comic fans think and feel—including the female ones.

Yaoi, on the hand, is pretty damn clear in terms of who it panders to and how. LOL!
I understand what you’re saying Diana, please don’t think I’m trying to flame here, but you’re applying this overall ‘women demand of men 2′ concept to this particular situation and it doesn’t quite fit.
I still feel Isaac has the right to expect more from the real-life happenings at Yaoicon though – the reasons for which, I stated above.

30 | Diana

October 12th, 2008 at 9:22 pm

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Well, all of these comments are certainly our separate opinions. That’s why they have our names at the top of them after all.

I still don’t see the difference. Do you think that just because something is labeled ‘for girls’ or ‘for guys’ that men/woman can’t complain about it? That they don’t have the right? That if something was labeled ‘just for guys’ that THAT label would make a difference to the girls upset by any objectification or sexism? That they then wouldn’t have the RIGHT to complain?

I think the author of any fantasy has to contend with the reactions of people outside their community. You can bitch about how they don’t have the right all you want but it doesn’t change the fact that you are putting your fantasy out, on the net or in a comic or story for people to look at. Gay man, straight girls, dudes, ladies, transvestites, and dogs (if they could type on the net) have just as much a “right” to “judge and demand consideration” as you have the right to ignore them and write comments about how that’s just their opinion. In short good luck with that.

Honestly, the original post wasn’t even talking about yaoi being bad. The post was about one gay man saying that he felt uncomfortable at this particular convention for things SEPARATE from the actual yaoi. From the actual article: “Yaoi itself does not necessarily objectify gay men, and I had a lot of fun when the Con focused on the actual yaoi.”

31 | Tina Anderson

October 12th, 2008 at 10:55 pm

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@DianaDo you think that just because something is labeled ‘for girls’ or ‘for guys’ that men/woman can’t complain about it? No I never said that–but to expect their opinions to enact change? Nope, I don’t think should. ^_^

I wasn’t bitching, and you’re upset. Maybe you should take time out. ^^’

I think you seem to believe that I’m pissed at Isaac for expressing his opinion. :/ Sadly no, I think you read what ticked you off, and then typed accordingly.

Bowing out now, again Issac, thanks for hearing me out, and thanks for sharing your views on Yaoicon.

32 | Diana

October 12th, 2008 at 11:37 pm

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@Tina Anderson – Um, LOL, I’m not upset. =/ I’m mostly amused.

33 | Caithyra

October 14th, 2008 at 4:53 am

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Heh, I can understand being uncomfortable about auctions and the bingo. I know I am and I have only read about it.

Often when I hear about stunts like these, I wonder exactly why there’s events that auctions off human beings. Even if it is in “good, clean” fun. But I guess that I’m too sensitive that way, and probably read too much history, because my mind immediately brings up slavery and how a wife was the property of her husband.

Ah well, it was fun reading about your experience at Yaoi-con. ^_^ (Here from When Fangirls Attack)

34 | Isaac Hale

October 14th, 2008 at 5:29 am

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@Diana@Tina Anderson

Thank you both for the very interesting debate here. As was pointed out, I have no beef with yaoi, only the objectifying and disturbing acts done with real men at the Con. In no way do I expect the genre to change to accommodate gay men. Yaoi is almost always by women for women.

I thoroughly enjoyed the yaoi-only sections of the Con, and it was only the auctioning, spanking and dehumanizing of real (and nominally gay) men that offended me. It’s not what the Con is about, and I believe it seriously detracts from Yaoi-Con’s image. A casual observer could easily be revolted by the Con’s proceedings while having no grasp of what Yaoi is.

I’m loving this lively debate, and frankly none of it bugs me for a minute =). Feel free to agree or shut me down. I like it all!

35 | Isaac Hale

October 14th, 2008 at 5:42 am

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@toshirodragon – Funny, I think cocktail waitresses are dehumanized too =). No, it’s the power dynamic I disliked. I have no problem with the men there, I just think that the role of the constantly submissive gay man is a little disturbing. I have no beef with male maid cafes (weirdness of maid cafes period non-withstanding). My problem is with the Brunch in the context of the “gay male as subservient” power dynamic established by the other Con events. It further establishes the theme that real life gay men, not just the fictional ones drawn by women, are here to serve you. THAT bugs me.

“Oh you poor thing, you didn’t get your ass kissed all through Y-con for being a REAL gay man”. Please exlpain where in the article I ask to be worshipped. Thanks.

“Maybe you should ask them how they feel about it before you start pointing fingers at us women and calling us names.”. How did I insult women exactly?

“most of us live far apart and feel isolated from our families and coworkers because of our taste in manga”. Awwww. Somehow, after actually being rejected by friends and family for who I am, that’s really kind of laughable. I don’t actually feel isolated from others b/c I can’t confide about my pornographic preferences. I think you’re kind of alone on that one.

“As far as objectifying and dehumanizing, well welcome to the female side of life, bud.”. Because God knows that internalized oppression kicks ass. You get a gold star.

36 | Isaac Hale

October 14th, 2008 at 5:52 am

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@Sierra – “It’s not a “gay” convention. It’s a yaoi convention” Funny. Doesn’t my article make that argument? Oh wait, it does.

“If you really are a fan of anime, go to a gen-con so you can go back to ignoring those female cosplayers while they get “exploited” in those “horribly objectifying and dehumanizing” ways you’re probably more used to.”.

Wait. I enjoy objectifying women now? That is an amazing leap of logic. I’ve been to Yaoi-Con 2 years in a row and no others, though I have run a very succesful anime club too.

I don’t think that really being a fan means going to lots of Cons. It means liking to watch anime Under your line of reasoning you can only be a fan of a musician if you’ve been to his/her concert. Bad arguement.

“Might not be your schtick, babe, but there are a bunch of guys and girls who disagree with your preferences.

Next time try being more open-minded.”

Hahahahahaha! “My preferences”??!! That just made my night. If you want me to take you seriously, leave the not-so-subtle homophobia at the door. Thanks.

37 | Isaac Hale

October 14th, 2008 at 6:00 am

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@Nora – “Men have always found women’s sexual fantasies disturbing, since Nancy Friday’s Secret Garden books”. Don’t generalize. This implicitly targets my article. That’’s rude.

“Which is why most yaoi fans recognize, even insist, that it is fantasy and must always remain so, because while it’s OK to fetishize the unreal, it’s another thing altogether to do this to live human beings.”

Followed later in Nora’s response by….

“You were expecting a con about reality; you got fantasy”.

Wait… wait… You just completely contradicted yourself. The former quote is true. We as Yaoi fans expect FANTASY. Never in my article do I suggest otherwise Let’s trot out the transitive property here. If Isaac is a yaoi fan, and yaoi fans expect there genre to be fantasy only, then Isaac expects yaoi to stay in Fantasy Land! Thanks for arguing my point so eloquently. The translation of fantasy into twisted reality is exactly why Yaoi-Con pissed me off.

38 | Isaac Hale

October 14th, 2008 at 6:04 am

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@akeleven – Thank you so much for your support! I could not agree with you more! I fortunately was not traumatized, but was pissed off enough to write the article. Hopefully, a little change could come down the line for what could be a truly fantastic Con.

39 | Isaac Hale

October 14th, 2008 at 6:05 am

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@Erin F. – Heck. Yes.

40 | Isaac Hale

October 14th, 2008 at 6:08 am

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@akeleven

Simple- if they want to objectify real-life men, gay or no, make the Con female-only. Yaoi isn’t nasty, but the objectification of real gay men is hurtful.

41 | Isaac Hale

October 14th, 2008 at 6:11 am

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@Diana – “The screaming crowd of girls who yelled at the guys on stage to kiss and touch each other, made me think of drunk men at a party requesting girls to take off their clothing.”. Thank you for the apt analogy. The brazen objectification is a clear parallel between the two scenarios. Though sexism is not the problem at the Yaoi-Con events, a drunkenness on the reversal of power dynamics certainly is taking things too far.

42 | Diana

October 15th, 2008 at 3:38 am

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“Yaoi was conceived by women creating erotic fiction, comics, and art that allowed them to explore traditional female fantasies devoid of female characters.”

“You’re speaking from your own opinion here in that YOU think ‘yaoi’ can benefit from both genders—the sad truth is, your opinion doesn’t change what YAOI is.”

Sigh, Tina you are also speaking from your own opinions, as well, you just might not realize it. I know MANY woman who make or enjoy yaoi for NONE of the reasons you’ve put forward, with none of the history as to why they got into it that you have stated. I’ve seen many stories that involve important side characters that are female and lots of stories that focus directly on what BEING GAY means to the main pair of guys. You may have missed them cause those stories were not to your tastes… but that doesn’t mean that they don’t EXIST or aren’t part of yaoi.

Will yaoi crumble into ruin because of this other yaoi being made? No, for the most part yaoi will and has continued along perfectly fine… there will just be different views and voices. I actually know a girl or two selling their version of yaoi to a large crowd of mostly gay guys. Shocking, I know. There isn’t a hive mind as to what a woman’s fantasy has to be, so your claim that yaoi can’t change just because of what I or anyone else might want is quite a fanatsy itself… as there are many people making yaoi for all sort of reasons already.

We girls are not all the same. We will not have the same tastes. As for my personal tastes, as a yaoi fan, I like a middle ground between yaoi and gay porn with some what realistic dudes. SO YES, I’d like more people to consider the male point of view on yaoi. That would be awesome. Do I feel like that my version of yaoi is the ONLY acceptable version? Hell no.

@Isaac Hale – LOL, thanks. I quite enjoy talking about yaoi, it’s fun.

43 | Tina Anderson

October 15th, 2008 at 12:51 pm

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Please comprehend what I typed, if you can’t because its format, then please visit Jason’s blog where its typed and formatted. :/

I can’t figure out what you’re raging against? Yaoi was conceived in Japan as I said it was–your thoughts or my thoughts on what Yaoi in America is doesn’t change the reality of it’s inception.
Also, you’re yapping at my heels as if to suggest I’m some exclusionist with a hard-on to eliminate all gays from yaoi. Please, re-read and then go gripe at someone else. I know much about BL, even BL I don’t like–and yes, in the past few years there are a few gay characters created by mangaka…but they are the exception, not the rule. If you’re trying to educate me, please don’t–been there, done that. ^_^

Sorry all, but I’m turning off comment updates now. I likely should’ve have done it days ago.

44 | Katherine Dacey

October 15th, 2008 at 3:39 pm

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Once again, folks, I’m going to remind everyone to keep the tone respectful. If the thread continues in this vein, I will close the comments permanently.

45 | Diana

October 15th, 2008 at 4:22 pm

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@Tina Anderson

Ah, I see so Japan! Well that makes sense. Actually I was thinking that I had the wrong point, it’s not so much ‘change’ I should pointing out but as you’ve said that there are, have been, and exist different types of yaoi already in Japan and over here that go for and against the historic place of yaoi as a fantasy puely for woman. And I think that change of anything is completely possible and might even be good. Much like the focus of anime and manga has changed in Japan the idea of something is not immutable.

LOL raging? Wow, no sorry. You brought up some thoughts on things and I brought up my own. I’m not trying to convince you or cast you as anything. Thanks for taking the time to comment though it’s been interesting.

46 | Dana

October 17th, 2008 at 6:36 pm

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Makes me want to have a purely boy’s love get together, where people can focuse on the romance.

Sadly people might confuse it with NAMBLA, lol.

47 | Isaac Hale

October 18th, 2008 at 6:36 am

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@Dana – Not Acknowledging Men in Ladies Assemblies. NAMBLA. Obviously my true affiliation.

48 | Isaac Hale

October 18th, 2008 at 6:38 am

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@Tina Anderson@Diana – Thanks for the lovely debate. Consider the thread war over.

49 | Tina Anderson

October 18th, 2008 at 10:50 am

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@Isaac Hale – Roulette has been licensed in Germany with a release date of 9/2009; and will be released in the USA in December 2009.

Many of us in RUSH are doing ok. Lara Yokoshima has a manga pilot at Tokyo Pop [Regatta], Lynsley Brito and I have an original German BL manga coming out in June [Games With Me], and Akira Atsushi and Akito are working on finding a publisher for Night and Day.

50 | lemony_goddess

October 21st, 2008 at 8:13 pm

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I’m sorry to hear that you encountered this toxic atmosphere at Yaoi-Con. Part of me wants to say “welcome to what we women have to deal with on a daily basis”, but women becoming like the loutish men to get revenge… That’s wrong too.

Last year, there was a report on Canada’s Anime North which touched on similar issues (although apparently the atmosphere at Anime North was not toxic, but a lesbian had encountered issues elsewhere.)

A gay friend inducted me into slash and yaoi – he found the pictures hot. So do I, but when it became evident that I was getting something more from the stories than he was, we stopped talking about yaoi together. We’re still friends, we just don’t talk about yaoi any more. His boyfriend takes up his thoughts now… :)

51 | jibii

October 22nd, 2008 at 2:46 pm

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Sorry if I’m a little late to the party..

I have to put in that real people play acting a role can be fantasy, too. And I should know, I work in a strip club. My “customers” aren’t objectifying *me*, but the role I’m playing on stage.

I’ve been attending YaoiCon since 2002, and have attended the bishounen auction a number of times over the years. I, personally, am not really into the auctions and other-such events (being a lesbian). But I think it’s fine and dandy for the hetero, bi, and lesbian women who do. The men who participate are all volunteers, know full well what they are getting into and enjoy the heaps of attention they get. I’ve got a couple of straight guy friends who volunteered this year, even.

The entire con is a fanatsy for those attending. It’s a step out of their day-to-day real world, where they can all say, do, and feel whatever they want to. And for some of them, objectifying men (and *getting* objectified by women!) is on the agenda for the weekend. They can allow themselves to be sexual beings and “let it all hang out”.

I have to admit, I do think that some of the events stray a little too far from the Yaoi subject matter, but the events themselves are all involving consenting adults who are ALL enjoying themselves.

If you don’t like that, you are completely free to do so, but please just ignore them, just like I do. But please don’t judge them. Just let them have their fun in the safe environment of the con.

To clarify: I am in no way condoning unconditional objectification – I still hate getting honked at while walking down the street – but people playing a role and agreeing to be objectified is a-ok!

52 | Sadie

October 22nd, 2008 at 2:51 pm

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As much as I enjoy Yaoi Con (for many of the people I meet there and because I can sell stuff), I don’t care for the staff, or the attitude. Events like Yaoi Bingo and the Bishounen Auction I avoid like the plague. The only ‘Host Cafe’ I go to is the one composed of girls dressed up as guys.

That being said, I’m not the sort to find those events bad in and of themselves. I put them on the same level as strip joints and clubs and restaurants that emphasize sexual attire in their waitresses/waiters. As long as everything is consensual and everyone involved knows what to expect (a woman shouldn’t start working for Hooters, for example, if she doesn’t want guys talking to your tits or staring at your ass — by contrast, the same woman shouldn’t be expected to put up with physical contact that isn’t part of the job), than it’s all good.

And there is no doubt in my mind that most of the guys getting involved in the Bishounen Auction really, really love the attention. A couple of my guy friends wanted to get involved and I’m pretty sure it was for the chance to have hordes of women fighting over them. I gotta say, I have no sympathy for them in terms of being objectified.

But those events shouldn’t be taking place at Yaoi Con. There is no correlation between “enjoying pretty drawn boys that are in love with each other” and “enjoying real life guys doing the bump and grind”. It’s like going to the video room and finding real life gay porn playing instead of a BL anime. It doesn’t add up.

There is an East Coast yaoi convention set to begin in 2010, if I remember right. It’s a different group of people and I only hope it’ll end up with a different atmosphere and a stronger focus on BL/yaoi itself.

53 | Hans

December 10th, 2008 at 3:40 pm

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Well, I’m waiting for a gay mens version – nothing wrong with THAT, and this would be the place for it (SF). I also don’t see WHY “sex” or “porn” CAN’T be mixed with contemporary socio- political issues and ideas, Why NOT, lol? I can’t STAND people who focus intently on one area to the exclusion of everything else… it seems lacking in breadth or scope of intelligence, to me… of course there are times when it’s appropriate or necessary, or even enjoyable. but ALL the time? No.

I think part of the “problem” is that people persist in saying that a certain thing or area is “this” (one thing or interpretation) and cannot contain ideas or infiltration from other areas or disciplines.

Hence the continual excuse (or proclamation or judgment or whatever) that sex isn’t “about” love or that it’s “ONLY” about using and objectification. That’s too easy, dammit! (and aside from that that statement only represents one person perspective or opinion) Things are seldom “just” about ANY one thing… it’s like the term “NSA” – … as far as I can see it there are ALWAYS “strings attached”. Whether you can SEE them or are willing or capable of acknowledging them or not.

54 | Tyris

January 9th, 2009 at 3:11 am

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Dude as a gay man myself i can say honestly i don’t know where your coming from. i mean all those men that were “dehumanized” and “objectified” were willing to do that it was an auction for christ sakes i think you knew what you were getting your-self into. obviously they didn’t have a problem with it i’ve done it more than once and i liked it and had fun and so did all the other guys i talked to… i mean seriously its not meant to show the gay mans point of view everyones their to have fun i think it was a shame to hear that you didn’t……. sorry Dude

55 | Graphic Novel Review » Yaoi for Parents, A Crash Course in Boys’ Love by Shaenon K. Garrity– Part Two: Why Yaoi?

September 22nd, 2009 at 3:00 pm

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[...] 2008 when blogger Isaac Hale complained, from his perspective as a gay man and manga fan, about the objectification of gay men at Yaoi-Con in San [...]

56 | aoi_aka

September 23rd, 2009 at 4:48 pm

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I’m number 56!

Almost a year later, I join the party. ;)

I love 07-Ghost! I was so happy that it got licensed. I’ve been anxiously waiting for volume four. The anime ended in Japan this week and from what I hear, it wasn’t that good an ending (at least that was the crappy translation I got from Google from a Tweeter “friend” of mine).

I work in a high school’s library so I was tickled pink when my boss ordered After School Nightmare. It was highly recommended by the ALA so she bought the series.

I want to read Noodle Shop Affair and Take Me to Heaven but there’s always something else on the shelves that gets my attention. I really should buy them online. ^^;; I already have Delivery Cupid and Pet on Duty. They’re funny and cute.

Now Yaoi Con. That is one scary convention. I love to read yaoi. In the quiet and solitude of my room and not just because some of it is good for fapping but because I get to fangirl by myself with nobody else’s opinions which I don’t really care for (which is the main reason I don’t read reviews).

I agree with you 1000% (not a typo). Each and every single time I’ve gone to YC, I want to run in the opposite direction. I go to my local anime con and the impulse to run is not as strong and this con is maybe three times as big as YC.

I refuse to be called a fujoshi. I hate the term because it implies the rabidness that women exhibit during the convention. I would rather *beep* to rusted barbed wire than behave like that. It’s just not me.

Why do I even bother to go? Because of the mangaka. My chances to ever going to Japan during Comiket season to meet Kazuma Kodaka are so small. When do I get a chance to meet her, slightly fangirl in front of her w/o passing out or melting into a pool of goo, and getting her autograph? At Yaoi Con, of course!

That’s how I met her and Takanaga Hinako (that year I got on the same elevator and she and her entourage got on! I was a happy fan) and so many of my favorite authors. This year I’m going ’cause more of my favorite authors are going.

The other reason is to meet up with my one friend in San Francisco. She’s the light of my life and I haven’t seen her in almost two years. *waves to Buchou*

I hate the bingo, the auction, the dance, the blatant objectification of both male and female. I don’t go to many of the panels and avoid people in general. If not for my friend and the mangaka, I wouldn’t even bother going. It’s an embarrassment. Then the fujoshi have the balls to demand to be taken seriously. I can’t. Not when they’re spanking another human being. Or paying money to “spend time” with them. Did you know their “reason” for the auction is to sponsor the con the next year? Well…I’d very much like to see how they spend all that money. It’s been going on for years. :)

But it’s okay. This is just my opinion, what I think and feel and none of that matters to any of them. I like it that way. I do know I always stir trouble wherever I go. And so this year I’ll probably be just roaming around or watching TV in my hotel room. It works perfectly for me. :)

57 | Ryuutchi

September 24th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

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WAY LATE HERE, but I’m one of the panelists for the Misogyny and Yaoi Panel– thank you for your kind mention. The lack of social awareness at Yaoicon was one of the driving impulses for running that particular panel (and this year’s “Queer Women and Yaoi” panel as well). I’m sorry that you had such an awful time, and I know of more than a few people, male AND female, who feel that Yaoicon has become extremely unfriendly in some very uncomfortable ways.

I’ll admit that a lot of the problems you had with the con are why I usually end up spending time with friends in my hotel room, or hanging out at Cafe Verfurhen (the women-run cafe) when I’m not running panels. While I will disagree with your interpretation of certain events, your conclusion is rock solid, and because of that, many of the responses you’ve received are upsetting.

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