2006: The Year That Was In Diversity In Comics
Posted by: Loren R. Javier on January 4, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Blogging is such an interesting thing. There are so many of us out there on the blogosphere, all trying to get our thoughts out there and, if we’re lucky, build a readership. In July, after different attempts at blogging, I decided to refocus on diversity in comic books. I’ve had an invested interest in seeing diversity in media in general, having always searched for images of myself, an out gay Asian American man. It was a unique topic that I felt one could write volumes on and, thankfully, I’ve found that this is the case. Thus, ONE DIVERSE COMIC BOOK NATION was born. Over the last six months, I’ve looked at different topics such as Marvel’s Wedding of the Century between Black Panther and Storm, offered suggestions about diversifying the Birds of Prey, shared my experiences on being an openly gay man in a comic book store, and explored what it would be like to bring Milestone comics back. It’s been a great experience.
In December, I started thinking about writing a year end entry. The obvious choice was to look at the year that was in diversity in comics. As I reflected, I was amazed by how many things happened. When we go by, day by day, it is difficult to see how all these things interconnect. 2006 has ended up being both a time of great achievement as well as a year of experiencing a few bumps. So, I share with you the impressive year that I saw.
One of the big announcements of 2006 was that the DC Universe was going to be a more diverse universe. While Jason Rusch as the new Firestorm lead the way a couple of years ago as a major name in the DCU, 2006 saw the launch of an Asian All-New Atom (the first iconic character to be of Asian descent), a Latino Blue Beetle, and a lesbian Batwoman. For all intents and purposes, I do laud DC’s attempt to reflect the real world. But, I did have a big problem in the way that they marketed this move. It almost felt as if they were saying, “We have a new Asian Atom…isn’t that neat?”
Actually, I did a little research and why this marketing comes off the way it does is because of a May 28, 2006 New York Times article. The article said, “At DC Comics, an effort is under way to introduce heroes who are not cut from the usual straight white male supercloth. A mix of new concepts, dusted-off code names and existing characters, the new heroes include Blue Beetle, a Mexican teenager powered by a mystical scarab; Batwoman, a lesbian socialite by night and a crime fighter by later in the night; and the Great Ten, a government-sponsored Chinese team.” Later, about Batwoman, the Times wrote, “In her latest incarnation, Batwoman is a wealthy, buxom lipstick lesbian who has a history with Renee Montoya, an ex-police detective who has a starring role in 52.”
This raised a red flag for many who worry about the tokenism of the character. Is it going to be all about her sexual orientation, a titilation factor or is it really going to reflect the world we live in?
There have been similar reactions for the All-New Atom and Blue Beetle. There have been some, including myself, who wonders how Ryan Choi could be so assimilated to American culture if he just immigrated to the country, but there were hopes that Ryan could bring greater understanding to the immigrant experience. Jenn Fang from Reappropriate said, “Even though he’s the F.O.B. [Fresh off the Boat] superhero, this still gives writers the opportunity to write a decent ‘Coming to America’ storyline. It will give the writers the opportunity to write about the difficulties and adjustment that comes with immigration to America. Perhaps the immigration narrative will finally be treated in comics as more than just a peaches ‘n cream experience. Nonetheless, as of right now, Ryan seems unnaturally well-adjusted to America for having just landed, Fresh Off the Boat.”
For Blue Beetle, some saw Jaime as Mexican in name only. William Gatevackes, in his Broken Frontier column Guiding Lines, wrote, “…after reading the first few issues of the Blue Beetle series, I don’t think much would be changed if the character was an Irish-American teenager instead of a Mexican-American one. There might be some subtle nuances in the character that I am forgetting, but I think you could tell the same story about a Sean O’Leary Blue Beetle as you did with a Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle.” Others, interestingly enough, thought that he was TOO Latino. Andrew “Captain Comics” Smith from Comics Buyers Guide wrote in his August column, “So, the appeal of this character is presumably A) he’s Latino, B) he’s a teen, and C) he’s Latino. Sorry, DC, we need a little more than that. I give it a year before the ax.”
For now, though, despite the bumps to get to diversifying its universe, DC seems to be genuinely interested in incorporating these characters into their universe. Yes, there are things they could be doing better, such as getting writers from the communities these characters are from to give authenticity, but I do believe they have good intentions and are trying to do the right thing.
On a related note, Entertainment Weekly’s Ken Tucker picked The All-New Atom as the best new ongoing series of 2006. Hopefully, with this added publicity, the Atom will have more and more issues to come!
In late August, Marvel Comics reverses its controversial decision to require an adult warning label for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender characters in a solo series. The policy came into effect after the media storm and furor that seemed to erupt after Marvel announced, in 2002, that it was bringing back a beloved character from the 1950s — the Rawhide Kid — but, this time, he’d be gay. Actually, truth be told, I don’t think anybody really knew about the policy until Marvel Editor-In-Chief Joe Quesada mentioned in a February interview with Newsarama, “Well, understand that if we were to go with the gay Kid we would have had to label the books MAX and that’s not what we wanted for this event. So, for the commercial betterment of this mini Western event, we felt it was best to keep it out of the MAX world for now.”
This, of course, baffled people and forced Quesada to try to clarify what he meant. He later told Newsarama, “Rawhide was labeled MAX because the major hook and focus of the project was the sexuality of the main character, a 50-plus year old established character. The reason the books featuring the characters you named in your question don’t carry a MAX label is because that’s not the focus of their books. The sexuality aspect of their lives is just one part of the whole that makes up their books, as opposed to Rawhide, where the fact that he was gay and his history was the major point of the book.”
This, of course, only baffled people even more. And, after months of brewing controversy and a win of the GLAAD Media Award for Young Avengers, Marvel suddenly reiterated its policy. Quesada, at Wizard World Chicago in August, told the crowd that their policy on LGBT characters would remain in place. He added, “I hope it changes next week.”
He was almost right…two weeks later, Quesada told Newsarama that Marvel had reversed its decision. He said, “It’s given us the opportunity to spark some internal discussions and revisit this issue, especially in light of the fact that we have characters like Freedom Ring, who is the current star of ‘Marvel Team Up’ without much fanfare mind you, and that we’ve had more gay and lesbian characters appearing in Marvel comics than ever before. In many ways, the old policy over the last few years has just sort of faded away, so let me just say that there is no longer any policy.”
Speaking of Freedom Ring, Marvel ended up dropping the ball on this character that Quesada kept pointing out as a shining example of a new gay character in the Marvel Universe. Or, not so much dropping a ball than violently throwing the ball on the ground and shattering it into a million pieces. A furor arose on the Internet about the treatment of this character and the way he was killed off.
Joe Palmer at Gay League wrote, “Maybe I’m overreacting. It does happen I was prepared to toss in references to England’s homosexual King Edward II and his alleged cause of death (sodomy with a red-hot poker) and gay icon, the martyred Saint Sebastian. For a few minutes I wondered if it might be time to start an LGBT version of ‘Women in Refrigerators,’ called either ‘Homos in Refrigerators’ or ‘Queers in Refrigerators.’ It’s just a story with colorfully clad characters, most of who were heroes, and gay characters shouldn’t be subjected to a set of different standards.” Ray Randell from Super Underwear Perverts wrote, “So what exactly was it about Curtis that Kirkman felt deserved such a brutal, graphic death? Was he just an idiot? He certainly didn’t act all that bright at times, especially in battle. But many Marvel heroes screwed-up early in their careers, and yet they all survived their first outings. Spider-Man famously let a thief run-away without stopping him because he couldn’t be bothered, and that same crook ended-up murdering his Uncle Ben. It was a pretty harsh lesson, but Pete survived it. He didn’t get impaled or spiked twenty-to-thirty times just for the crime of being a bumbling self-interested jerk.” Unfortunately, we may never know why as this character no longer exists in the Marvel Universe.
On November 25, in a New York Times article, DC announced that it was going to launch a new line of original graphic novels aimed at teenage girls. The line would be called Minx. While everyone agrees that any outreach toward a demographic not normally targeted by comic book publishers is a good thing, the news did raise quite a few eyebrows.
First, while DC said that the name “Minx” tested the best in focus groups, the use of the word “Minx” was viewed by many as a more offensive term. Karen Healey from Girls Read Comics (And Are Pissed) wrote, “But does the heroine ever describe herself as a minx, little or otherwise? No. It’s a term directed towards women, not a self-description. In male mouths, it’s often a term of approval for the heroine’s sass and fiery strength of character – but it’s then masculine approval. So applied, it’s a word that trivialises feminine anger, boldness or resistance as necessarily sexual, and is directly concerned with the attractiveness or otherwise of such cutsey, flirtatious impudence.” Mister Fanboy asked, “…what marketing genius decided that a word that’s synonym colloquially translates as ’slut’ would be appropriate for this line?”
But, more than the name, the fact that only a couple of women creators would be on board for the launch of a line aimed at teenage girls got people talking. Johanna Draper Carlson from Comics Worth Reading asked, “But I can only imagine what the press would do if the Logo channel, targeted at gays, had over 85% of their shows created by straights. Perhaps that’s not a fair example, given that gays already get a lot of Hollywood work, and the same can’t be said about women in comics. How many black creators does BET have? How many black actors are represented on that network? I know Lifetime has a ton of visible females. In short, how do you talk to a target audience if you’re not allowing members of that audience to speak?”
Regardless of the controversy, the launch of Minx is a bold new move that everybody, in the long run, hopes will succeed. Heidi MacDonald at THE BEAT reported, “Minx is a momentous undertaking by DC because they have set aside a quarter of a mil buckaroos to market a new line of graphic novels. $250,000 is small in the larger scheme, but far from chump change in the historically parsimonious comics field, and by teaming with Alloy Marketing, DC has proven they’re serious. No one has EVER done anything like this in mainstream comics before. Marvel doesn’t have two pennies to rub together towards outside marketing, and according to Paul Levitz this is their biggest outside marketing expenditure in 30 years. It’s also something of a tacit admission that traditional comics marketing doesn’t reach the outside world in a targeted, modern way. In the real world, marketing isn’t sending out press releases, it’s partnering, pacting, blasting, placing and so on.”
Fangirls Are Doin’ It For Themselves
While, certainly, there have been fangirls out in the blogosphere and the podcast world making their voices known for years, it could be argued that it was in 2006, when Lisa (Ragnell) Fortuner and Melissa (Kalinara) Krause launched When Fangirls Attack, that fangirls started having a more united voice. On January 3, in a post entitled “The Project,” When Fangirls Attack was born. Ragnell wrote, “We started this blog because we noticed the large amount of posts on the subejct of Women in comics, how to get female readers, misogyny in comics, over the Blogosphere. We thought it would be an interesting project to catalog them. This way all of the points, and counterpoints are in one place for if you want to seriously think about and research the subject. So, here we are.” I know, for myself, the links that they have provided have not only been invaluable to me, but have introduced me to a wide array of other fangirls out there all getting their voices heard, many of whom I like to call friends.
2006 also saw the birth of Girl-Wonder.org. Created to address a “rising level of frustration at the treatment of female characters in the books was driving these fans to desperation, to the point where some felt that they had no choice but to abandon a hobby which once gave them great joy,” Girl-Wonder.org has become a marketplace of ideas, discussion, and activism.
But, while there’s been lots of positives, there’s also been negatives. Heidi Meeley from Comics Fairplay points out that some of the bad has been, “I have never seen fans so divided as I have witnessed this year on the internet. The women in blogging are pissed as hell and they aren’t going to take it anymore. The men in blogging are a bit frightened and confused. It doesn’t make for much cohesiveness. Women in the industry have come forward with sad tales that have garnered both sympathy and ridicule. That age old battle of the sexes is alive and well here in the computer age and doesn’t appear to be leaving anytime soon.”
One of the biggest examples of this was the furor over comments made Erik Larsen made in a May Comic Book Resources column. Speaking about how artists tend to be more politically correct for fear of retribution from “whiners” out there, Larsen wrote, “Self-censorship is still censorship. Drawing a comic about the Barbi twins and having them have chests like Little Lulu because of a few balkers on the Internet strikes me as pretty cowardly. Is that where we’re all headed? Artists censoring themselves because of a few vocal whiners? Comics have always featured characters with impossible or near-impossible figures. Men in comics all have washboard stomachs and square jaws. I don’t have a have washboard stomach and square jaw — should I feel justified in calling for more heroes with spare tires, double chins and thinning hair? Should all women in comics be plain or homely because some real women find attractive comic book characters threatening or offensive?”
Lisa (Ragnell) Fortuner from Written World wrote, “Wow, all the years I’ve been following these characters and I’ve before never realized that the only likeable thing about them is their breasts. I guess Power Girl’s brassy attitude, unapologetic honesty and feminist aspirations were fabricated by my own sick imagination. And here I didn’t realize that there were dozens of women running around with invisibility powers, a Golden Age legacy, a socialite background, in a political backdrop with a patriotic superteam and the only thing that distinguished our Phantom Lady was her humongous bazongas! Thank you, Mr Larsen, for enlightening this foolishly idealistic woman!” Persona Non Grata from ?????? wrote, “Something I’ve noticed when the issue of objectification of women in comics has come up (and probably can be applied to other forms of media too), someone will defend the status quo by pointing to the design of male heroes. Sure, heroines may have this and this and this, but look at how men are drawn! But this assumes that all things are equal, and idealization is the same as objectification.”
Comments like these stirred the pot with some righteous fanboys crying foul and rushing to Erik Larsen’s defense. Unfortunately, Larsen himself couldn’t leave well enough alone, writing in his next column, “Women don’t avoid all magazines because the covers on a few of them offend their sensibilities — the very notion is ridiculous. There are magazines aimed at women that sell hundreds of thousands of copies. The reason women don’t go into comic book stores is not because of a few covers –it’s because there’s little to attract them into these stores and, if they did dare to wander into one of these often filthy little dens there’s very little in there for them to read. Women simply aren’t interested in adolescent male power fantasies.”
And, so the flame wars continued. Sarah from Alert Nerd wrote, “First of all, why do you think you know what every female comics fan is thinking, especially since you just pissed a bunch of them off with your last column? How do you know what does and does not attract them to a store and what they are and are not interested in reading? I’m a female comics fan. Some of my first loves were the X-Men, Spider-Man and Batman. And yes, I also love the things that I guess are thought of as “girl comics” — Sandman and Ghost World and Blue Monday. I don’t think I’m as easy to pigeonhole as you seem to think — I don’t think most female fans are.”
Regardless of how this particular event turned out and the other flame wars that tended to erupt about feminism and comic books, one thing is clear, fangirls are doin’ it for themselves. And, that is powerful!
Obsidian Comes Out (And We Better Get The Party Started)
This year, starting with issue 18 of Manhunter, Todd Rice (aka Obsidian) was given a new lease on life when it became quite clear that, after years of hints and suggestions, he is gay. He becomes part of the supporting cast and in a loving and committed relationship with Kate Spencer’s assistant Damon Matthews. Unlike many gay characters in comic books, Todd and Damon have a fully developed relationship in which we see them kiss and in bed together.
Manhunter writer Marc Andreyko told Jennifer Contino at PULSE News, “I… wanted to make him a well-adjusted gay guy. After all the stuff Todd has had to deal with, I portray him as a happy guy in a healthy relationship.”
And, interestingly enough, all of this is done with relatively little fanfare or complaint. That is, until Alex Ross made a statement in Wizard magazine that baffled the gay comics community. The use of the word “molested” was a key word that made people fear Ross to have made a homophobic statement. Word got out around the ‘net and, fortunately, out gay comic writer Andy Mangels went to the source to get a clarification and it turned out Ross used an unfortunate choice of words. Ross said in a written statement, “To anyone offended by my remarks about Obsidian’s being ‘molested’ by writers and his sexual identity being a ‘fun, creative’ idea that I obviously disagreed with, I do apologize. These were purely boneheaded comments I voiced poorly and flippantly. I clearly did not understand how the remark would be interpreted. The use of ‘molested’ was purely meant to be a passionate phrasing of ‘meddling,’ which I probably use far too often. I wouldn’t wish anyone to think I saw a problem with gay characters in comics, and I do recognize that my words could be taken that way.”
All was good in the kingdom once more. It also demonstrated how powerful the Internet can be.
Black Panther and Storm have the Wedding of the Century, but not quite a honeymoon for Storm
Amidst a Civil War and an epic galactic battle, Marvel also celebrated what it dubbed “The Wedding of the Century.” This, of course, was the wedding between two of Marvel’s most beloved black characters – Black Panther and Storm. The pairing seemed a little strange because it seemed so sudden. Storm editor Axel Alonso said at the Black Panther and Storm Wedding conference call kicking off the event, “Basically we’re building to an event in July that has been decades in the making.” But, in reality, this event decades in the making was a retcon expansion of what happened in one issue (Marvel Team-Up #100 by Chris Claremont and John Byrne). Jenn Fang from Reappropriate told me in an interview for one of my columns, “I am troubled by the message sent by the act of simply romantically pairing two seemingly completely disparate Black characters together on what seems to be simply on the basis of race. Just because Storm and Black Panther are both African doesn’t mean that they can or should make a good romantic couple; the act of ret-conning their origin stories to put them together suggests that the writers have thought no further into their rationale than seeing two Black characters from the same geographic region and thinking they would automatically fall in love with each other. It places too much emphasis on their race as a basis for their relationship, kind of like trying to set up your two Asian friends just because they’re both Chinese or automatically assuming that your two gay friends are perfect for one another just because they’re both gay.”
While the Wedding went off without a hitch and Captain America and Iron Man were able to keep it in their pants, the next concern was, now that Storm was part of Black Panther’s book, what would happen to this powerful character? Lisa (Ragnell) Fortuner from Written World wrote, “Everyone does realize that taking Character A, when Character A is one of the major players in a teambook, and putting her into the supporting cast of Character B’s solo book is a demotion, right? It makes Character A subordinate to Character B’s story. Character A will be hurt, maimed and written out of character in order to advance Character B’s story…So, you all realize, this is very, very likely to happen to Storm in Black Panther? Which is why I’m so damned pissed about this pairing, right?”
One could never have thought she could have been so prophetic for, in the very next issue following the Wedding, Storm seemed uncharacteristically pushed to the sidelines. The Keeper at Fortress of Fortitude wrote, “Come on, Hudlin. This is Ororo Munroe, arguably Marvel’s premiere super-heroine, we’re talking about. It’s like taking Wonder Woman and making her the new Robin.” D. Edward Suave from Governed by the Prophet King cried, “WHY wourld a strong, noble, SMART man like T’Challa mistake that Milksop for his beloved goddess Storm? This woman is supposed to be a QUEEN? He’s not smart enough to listen to his wife, who’s AN EXPERIENCED WARRIOR IN HER OWN RIGHT?”
While things have gotten a little better for the series, it remains to be seen if Storm will continue to be relegated to a sidekick or whether we will see her return to her former glory.
Virgin Comics brings South Asians to the mainstream comic table
Virgin Comics seemed to appear out of nowhere, a fledgling company with the backing of one of the richest men in the world. With Virgin (the main company) diversifying as much as it has into music stores, cell phones, and what not, it seemed like only a matter of time before it would try to dip its hand into the world of comic books. Their company launched with a series of titles with Indian heroes and South Asian mythology as part of their Shakti line, which “mines the great traditions and mythologies of India and re-ignites them in the form of cool and dynamic character branded comics.” In fact, one of their two major areas of development, according to the Virgin Comics Web site is, “The creation of original stories and character properties that tap into The vast library of mythology and re-invent the rich indigenous narratives of Asia in a unique, compelling, and entertaining way.”
With the likes of spiritual guru Deepak Chopra in the forefront of the company, the company also offers a different way of doing things. The creators take a more spiritual approach and infuse this into their works. It’s a very eastern way of doing things. Said Chopra in his Virgin Comics Q & A, ” I have always felt that a culture is sustained and nurtured by its myths. Mythical themes influence our behavior and even our habits of consumption. Myth encapsulates the collective imagination, the collective dream, the collective aspirations of society. We are in need of new myths as we move into a global culture. The super heroes of tomorrow will be cross-cultural and transcend nationalistic boundaries. They will provide the raw material for a new imagination that will take us across the seas of space, time, and beyond. I am excited about participating in the creative aspects of the comic project because I see an opportunity to bring to our society a message that goes beyond the narrow boundaries of nationalism, and invites them to a domain of awareness where we experience our universality and hopefully, go beyond racism, ethnocentrism, bigotry, prejudice, and hatred. The new super heroes will be hybrids of all cultures helping us dream infinite possibilities and actualize our highest potential.”
The product is definitely impressive, with visionaries such as Chopra, filmmakers Shekhar Kapur and John Woo and boasting creators such as Jeevan Kang, Garth Ennis, Mukesh Singh, Alex Ross, Yoshitaka Amano, Zeb Wells, Michael Gaydos, and others. And, coming out of the gate, the company seems to be doing well. According to Voice of America, sales have been good. Comic book storeowner Jim Bernekon told Voice of America, “We sold out. We and other retailers across the country had trouble getting more copies from the distributor.”
Virgin Comics hopes to create a similar kind of cultural impact that Japanese manga has in the United States and around the world. According to a July ASIAN POP column by Jeff Yang, “Kapur has even gone on record as saying that ‘the potential in India [for comics] is no less than manga in Japan,’ and that Virgin’s aim is to use ‘the base of existing Indian mythology and art [to create] a unique product that has international appeal, just like manga did.’”
Yang also notes that the challenges, however, are greater for Virgin because manga is such a part of Japanese culture. Chopra tells Yang, “”In Japan, comic books are a part of the cultural heritage — they’ve been embedded there for generations. So it’s sort of presumptuous for us to say that we’re headed for that. It’s more something we can aspire to.”
And, hopefully, these aspirations will one day become a reality.
In November, a relatively unheard of book called American Born Chinese written and drawn by Gene Yang became the first graphic novel to be nominated for a National Book Award, the literature world’s version of an Academy Award. While Yang ended up tying for second, it was an important moment not only for sequential art, but for Asian Americans as well. American Born Chinese addresses issues faced by Asian Americans in an entertaining way, from assimilation to stereotypes to traditions.
M.T. Anderson, author of The Astonishing Life of Octavian Nothing, Traitor to the Nation, Vol. 1: The Pox Party, the winner of the Young People’s Literature category in which American Born Chinese was also nominated, even began his acceptance speech by mentioning Yang. According to the Washington Post, “In his acceptance speech, Anderson made a point of noting that Gene Luen Yang’s American Born Chinese was the first graphic novel nominated for a National Book Award. ‘There is a lot of dithering in the blogosphere,’ he said, about whether graphic novels are worthy. This can now be laid to rest.”
Jeff Yang, in his December ASIAN POP column, wrote, “That said, the biggest indie laureate this year wasn’t in the film biz at all; that designation belongs to Gene Yang, whom as you recall wrote and drew the masterful and hilarious graphic novel American Born Chinese. Long before it was nominated for the National Book Award or was picked up by First Second Books for reprint, it was self-published by Yang as a handful of black-and-white, hand-stapled photocopies — proof positive that you can’t judge a book by its cover.”
In December, Time Magazine named Alison Bechdel’s autobiographical graphic novel Fun Home as the number one book in its picks for best books (not just comic books or graphic novels) for 2006. Said Time of its pick, “The unlikeliest literary success of 2006 is a stunning memoir about a girl growing up in a small town with her cryptic, perfectionist dad and slowly realizing that a) she is gay and b) he is too. Oh, and it’s a comic book: Bechdel’s breathtakingly smart commentary duets with eloquent line drawings. Forget genre and sexual orientation: this is a masterpiece about two people who live in the same house but different worlds, and their mysterious debts to each other.”
According to Ohio’s Gay People’s Chronicle, Bechdel was surprised by Time’s pick. She said, “”I don’t know quite what to say about the Time magazine thing. I guess I’m a bit speechless. I’m very happy about it, obviously. It’s a great thing for queer stories, and for graphic novels, to get that kind of mainstream recognition.”"
A Prism Comics news item said, “Bechdel, already an LGBT icon and Lambda Literary Award winner for her nationally syndicated comic strip Dykes to Watch Out For, has gone far beyond breaking into the mainstream, racking up kudos all year long from a multitude of publications such as The New York Times, Entertainment Weekly, and The London Times as an important graphic literary milestone.”
When fanbases attack (and WIN!)
Two books, both with female protagonists (or, if I’m going to talk in “regular” English — women heroes), seemed to escape cancellation this year. This was due in no small part to loud and loyal fanbases for both of the books.
Spider-Girl was supposed to end at issue 100, but Marvel announced that Mayday Parker would make a return in a new series — The Amazing Spider-Girl. SaveSpider-Girl.Com happily rejoiced, “After seven hard months of letter-writing, flier-posting, radio boasting, banner-making, and ad-placing, original run of Spider-Girl has come to an end and yet this October, be ready for her triumphal return in her brand new title The Amazing Spider-Girl!” They also reported that, “Tom Breevort, senior editor at Marvel, has said that no other character fan-base is as vocal or – more importantly – as active as the Spider-Girl fans.”
A similar fate was to happen to DC’s Manhunter with number 25 being its last issue. But, Manhunter also got a last minute reprieve with an extension of five more issues. The five issues, however, contains a story arc important to the cannon of the DC Universe in an effort to get more readers to buy the book. DC Executive Editor Dan DiDio told Newsarama, “I’ve cancelled a lot of books in my day, but the thing that struck me the most about Manhunter was that this was the most vocal and organized response that we’ve gotten to any of our cancellations since I’ve been here. It actually made me pause for a moment, because Manhunter is a favorite of mine, and when I had to cancel it, it was really against my own personal choices. But when I saw the fan response ramp up, it was enough to make me think it might be worth it to go back, and give this book another shot.”
In fact, DC seems to be making an effort to build a bigger fanbase for Kate Spencer (Manhunter’s alias), including this story arc as well as bringing her into Birds of Prey.
Black Lightning joins the Justice League
The Justice League of America has seen many members in its time and it almost seemed like every superhero in the DC Universe was a member, honorary member, reserve member or other kind of member at one time or another. SAVE ONE! Black Lightning. Many Black Lightning fans remember the cover of Justice League of America #173 (volume one, that is) where Superman says, “We want you on the team, Black Lightning.” To which Black Lightning replies, “With that jive bunch of turkeys in the JLA? Forget it!!” It seems odd that a character with such historical importance to the DCU, being the first (and, still, one of the few) black characters to have his own title, would not have joined. But, Black Lightning wanted to remain on the street level where he felt he could do the most job.
In August, Justice League of America (volume two, this time) writer Brad Meltzer sat down with Brian Michael Bendis for an interview for Wizard Universe. On Black Lightning being a member of the team, Meltzer said, “There’s going to be someone out there going, ‘Black Lightning should never be there.’ And that’s the beauty of it. You realize that you can only do what you think is best. But we are trying to achieve a better story. And there is someone who is going to say, ‘Black Lightning? If this were an SAT analogy question, it would be, ‘Black Lightning is to Vibe, as X is to…’ And that’s just what they’re going to see. But that character has been around for 20 years dealing with the Justice League, dating all the way back to that original ridiculous “Jive Turkey” cover. It’s rarely been taken seriously–and to me, there’s a great, untapped character with great potential.”
Jon Haehnle January 4th, 2007
great article loren! i’ll reveal my own bias here by saying ABC was probably my favorite book of the year and i was also interested to find out that the all-new atom was asian — which i actually discovered randomly flipping through the book. “hey”, i thought, “this guy looks kind of asian” — and then of course i confirmed my suspicion when i saw him using chopsticks…
personally i didn’t look at black panther & storm’s wedding as cynically as some others — and in fact i never questioned them getting together because i had read (and been a big fan of) priest’s black panther stories.
gotta agree it was great to see the fangirls blogging. here’s hoping minx and black lightning on jla turn out to be good things.
thanks again for the great look back! :)
sammy January 5th, 2007
Great article. I couldn’t agree more with your thoughts on the union of BP and Storm.
I miss her in the X-Books.
Loren January 6th, 2007
Thanks again, Jon, for letting me share this with your readers! I’m looking forward to what 2007 has to offer in terms of diversity.
Sammy, thanks for the compliment. And, yes, hopefully Storm will return to her former glory!
Reginald Hudlin January 6th, 2007
Hmmm, an end of the year round of diversity in comics! Wow, is going to write about the triumphant return of Dwayne McDuffie to comics with his brilliant BEYOND series and his upcoming work on the FANTASTIC FOUR?
Uh, nope.
How about Kyle Baker’s NAT TURNER, which could be the crowning masterpiece of one of the greatest creators in this medium?
No mention of that either.
Well, how about those Dabel Brothers, a pair of African Americans who created a successful independent company, then did an unprecedented deal with Marvel Comics?
Not a peep.
Okay, how about Kevin Grevioux writing NEW WARRIORS?
No, not even at the end of piece mention as something to look forward to.
Well, the article does talk about BLACK PANTHER, the only mainstream book about a black character written by a black person. Does it mention the first time ever team of three of the most famous black superheroes ever (BLACK PANTHER, LUKE CAGE and BLADE) in an adventure in post-Katrina New Orleans? Considering it was the only mention in comics of one of the worst natural disasters in American history and the US government basically looked the other way as one of our nation’s biggest cities was wiped out because the residents were too black and poor to care about, that’s got be talked about, right?
No, no mention at all. It appears that the writer doesn’t read THE BLACK PANTHER and didn’t bother to catch up before writing an article about DIVERSITY IN COMICS.
Then is there a mention of all the internet controversy over the book, and how debates about the book tend to inspire astonishing racist exchanges (“Always attention to the black people and stuff” was a recent complaint on newsarama)?
No, although as an internet columnist that stuff’s pretty hard to miss.
Nope, all this article does is parrot complaints about Black Panther and Storm getting married “just because they are black”, which dismisses everything else they are (and all the things they have in common) in lieu of their race, and presumes that a black couple is automatically ghettoization, which is a projection of your own contempt for black love.
This attack is then followed by whining about the supposed diminishment of Storm as Panther’s wife, which has no basis in the reality of the book. Perhaps you think marriage inherently diminishes women, or that marriage to T’Challa inherently diminishes Ororo. I don’t really know what you think because you just repeat complaints without giving examples. Of course, it’s hard to give examples when you don’t read the book, which you admitted in your blog.
If you don’t know what you’re talking about, don’t talk.
If you don’t care about black comics, or black comics creators, don’t claim to write an article about it and do a bad job.
Ragnell January 6th, 2007
RH — Did you ever read Storm before you brought her into the book? Ever?
It makes no sense that she would act like such a doormat. Trying to solve a serious disagreement with a kiss ratehr than standing up for herself as an equal partner in the marriage? Who the hell are you writing? She’d have laid down the law right then and right there, king or no king.
Marriage is an equal partnership. You had the PERFECT chance to show that, and have both characters grow as a couple and you ignored it to make a joke about kissing Dr. Doom.
THAT is the diminishment.
Reginald Hudlin January 6th, 2007
First of all, sorry for the double post. Can someone remove the first one, please?
Second, to poster who responded: are you married? Because I am. And I know plenty of “power couples” and see the right and the wrong way to handle disagreements.
What Storm did was classy, cool and in control. She made her point and defused the situation instead of being a ball busting bitch. It was a Grown Folks moment. It may not be how you handle your business, it may not be how you want Storm to treat her man, but there’s nothing weak about it.
Loren January 6th, 2007
Mr. Hudlin,
First of all, you’re right. There were a great many advancements that were made during the year and you brought up several great examples that I missed. I don’t pretend that this was the end all and be all of diversity in comics. There was a great deal that I didn’t mention, not because I didn’t think it was good or worthy, but because of space and I tried to limit things to the things I felt had a great deal of discussion. That said, you are absolutely right — there were things that I missed by accident. The Dabel Brothers signing with Marvel and, as you mention, your storyline about the team-up of Black Panther, Luke Cage and Blade were BIG and I missed them. I am human and had been sifting through an Internet sea full of stuff. It was not my intention to leave those stories off.
Now, as for Black Panther. I actually DO read Black Panther. Admittedly, I’ve only been reading it since the announcement of the Wedding of the Century, but I do read it. This is partially why I missed the part about the first team up between Black Panther, Luke Cage, and Blade.
As for the part about Storm, I still have to agree with Ragnell. I do think that Storm is relatively pushed to the sidelines where were used to seeing her in more of a leadership role. The piece about Black Panther in my article reflected the discussion going on in the blogosphere and around the ‘Net. It is a concern for people out there about Storm’s role.
But, as you might see…and, maybe didn’t expand enough, I do also say that things have gotten better in terms of the Black Panther/Storm relationship.
I apologize if I offended you and your work by this piece. It was not my intent. I am actually trying not to shoot from the lip so much in the interest of trying to discuss the issues. If you would be willing, I’d love to interview you on your take and intent in Black Panther. We may not agree, but, I think, sometimes, we as readers don’t always get the insight and the thinking behind certain decisions. Read my latest conversation with John Ostrander on my blog. I try to be as fair as possible. If you are interested, please feel free to e-mail me at lorenjavier AT gmail DOT com.
Loren
Ragnell January 6th, 2007
RH — I didn’t ask if you were married, I asked if you’d ever read Storm before. See, this is not about how you handle your business, or how I handle mine. It’s about what fits with the two characters involved.
That wasn’t a “Grown Folks” way to solve the problem. That was a serious disagreement that would come up again and again in a marriage. He thinks that his wife helping him is a threat to his masculinity. That is something that needs to be discussed, not blown aside with a joke or a kiss. That’s not cool, classy, and in control at all. What Storm did was manipulative and evasive, which are character traits that she has never shown before.
Also, how is a no-nonsense woman who lets her husband know when he’s being foolish, and prideful, and overstepping his bounds a “ball-busting bitch”? How is discussing the problems when they happen instead of sweeping them under the rug with an endearing doe-eyed look not mature?
Anun January 6th, 2007
Dwayne McDuffie will also be writing Firestorm, but that is a 2007 thing. Much like his work on FF, actually.
And did a new issue of Nat Turner come out at all this year? I just remember the trade that bundled the first two issues together.
Whoops. Just call me a ball-bustin’ bitch for pointing this all out.
Loren January 6th, 2007
In regards to the Storm discussion, I can see how, in a married relationship, one person will concede to another. But, it does certainly seem that Storm concedes more often than not while Black Panther always seems to be the one who needs his ego stroked. Yes, Black Panther is a King, but, Storm is a Goddess. So, which one is more powerful than the other?
Guy LeCharles Gonzalez January 7th, 2007
re: the scope of Loren’s coverage.
He also left out several LGBT moments in 2006, but you seemed to have missed those in your rather biased critique of the article. Instead of trying to put him on blast like some illiterate blogger with an agenda, why not applaud him for pulling together a well-written and informative overview of diversity in the industry, and then add your additional highlights to the mix?
And of all sites to come to and pull some ignorant nonsense like this, you do it here on PCS, one of the few that pays attention to diversity in comics in months not named February?
You need to check yourself.
…a ball busting bitch.
Wow! Definitely not a “Grown Folks Moment” there. With concession and bitch seemingly being the only two options for Storm, I’m glad I finally dropped Black Panther a couple of issues back.
Guy LeCharles Gonzalez January 7th, 2007
PS: My comments are my own and should not be considered to represent the opinions of PCS.
Jennifer January 7th, 2007
Hey Ragnell, I’ve read Storm since I was old enough to read, and unless we’re getting different issues of the same book, I’ve yet to see a single example of how Storm is a doormat. Unless you’re talking about the time she spoke out against the Civil War BEFORE she was married and BEFORE T’Challa did…or her laying the smackdown on Doom and dismissing her pouty husband’s arrogant ways with a big smooch…or the fact that said husband proposed to Ororo THREE TIMES before she accepted. Is that the kind of doormat you’re talking about, Ragnell?
Jennifer January 7th, 2007
What Storm did was manipulative and evasive, which are character traits that she has never shown before.
I think the real question is: Ragnell, did you ever read a Storm book…ever?
Instead of trying to put him on blast like some illiterate blogger with an agenda, why not applaud him for pulling together a well-written and informative overview of diversity in the industry, and then add your additional highlights to the mix?
Because we would need a well-written and informative overview of diversity in the industry, as opposed to a thinly veiled excuse to write yet another whiny assed fanboy rant. No offense to Loren; it’s his blog and God knows I do enough of my own whiny assed fangirl rants. But I don’t try to pass them off as anything BUT whiny assed fangirl rants.
Loren January 7th, 2007
Guy – What?!?! I left out LGBT moments, too! Damn…what’s my problem?!?!?!
Jennifer- Ouch. And, I’ll just leave it at that.
Loren January 7th, 2007
Oh, and, Jennifer…while I haven’t physically met Ragnell, I trust she has read all kind of Storm books before…
Adan Jimenez January 7th, 2007
Oh man.
Seriously, Hudlin? Okay, ready? Your Black Panther is, frankly, quite awful (and I can say this because I’ve been reading it since you started). I had hoped you would follow up Priest’s excellent, excellent run, but you didn’t. You dropped the ball almost immediately with the updated origin story/Silver Age story/no-wait-it’s-actually-taking-place-now story (has Marvel even decided what to call that nonsense?).
But let’s get to your actual points: “Does it mention the first time ever team up of three of the most famous black superheroes ever (BLACK PANTHER, LUKE CAGE and BLADE) in an adventure in post-Katrina New Orleans?”
No, it doesn’t and you’re right. Our government fucked up royally (although I don’t think it was for the reasons you state, Kanye; I think it was because this government has a record of fucking up royally and it doesn’t know how to do anything else) and no other comic mentioned New Orleans. But why did you pick those three characters, Hudlin? Why not Brother Voodoo and Gambit, who actually are from New Orleans and have a vested interest in what happens there, instead of your other two guest stars? And if we’re talking about global tragedies, why doesn’t the Black Panther go to Darfur instead, a region of the world where Bad Shit Is Going Down that’s actually in the continent he lives in?
Onward: “Then is there a mention of all the internet controversy over the book, and how debates about the book tend to inspire astonishing racist exchanges (“Always attention to the black people and stuff” was a recent complaint on newsarama)?”
They tend to inspire astonishingly racist exchanges (which don’t seem that racist to me, but whatever) because your writing of Black Panther is astonishingly racist. Why is it that yours is the only book in which Marvel’s Civil War is not between pro-registration and anti-registration, but between black people and white people? Why is it that Rhodey breaks ranks and saves T’Challa against his best friend Tony Stark instead of some other Sentinel pilot? Why, when there is a meeting of two heads of states because of an important socio-political agenda, does the black man on the street only care about where the after-party is going to be?
And next: “Nope, all this article does is parrot complaints about Black Panther and Storm getting married “just because they are black”, which dismisses everything else they are (and all the things they have in common) in lieu of their race, and presumes that a black couple is automatically ghettoization, which is a projection of your own contempt for black love.”
I understand that editorial edicts and mandates always supercede all of a writer’s wants and needs in a story, but surely you have eyes and ears, Hudlin. The promotional material went so far as to say that two of Marvel’s most famous “African-American” characters were getting married. That surely suggests it was done simply because they were both black and Marvel had no qualms about promoting it as such, never mind the fact that the Black Panther has never been an American citizen and Storm renounced it as soon as she became Queen of Wakanda (unless the law prohibiting foreign heads of state from having an American citizenship doesn’t exist in the Marvel Universe). Why wasn’t the wedding of Luke Cage and Jessica Jones heralded with such fanfare? They’re a mixed race couple. Surely that’s more progressive than a same race couple, no? And just what exactly is “black love” and why is it so different from other forms of love, whether it be white, brown, yellow, red, or rainbow hued?
And then: “This attack is then followed by whining about the supposed diminishment of Storm as Panther’s wife, which has no basis in the reality of the book. Perhaps you think marriage inherently diminishes women, or that marriage to T’Challa inherently diminishes Ororo. I don’t really know what you think because you just repeat complaints without giving examples.”
You want examples of your misogynistic tendencies towards Storm? Fine. How about when Namor tells her to quiet down because the men are talking? Or the aforementioned Dr. Doom meeting, where Ororo helping T’Challa is a threat to his masculinity? Need more? I’ll be sure to pore over the issues in question when next I’m the comic book store.
And finally: “If you don’t care about black comics, or black comics creators, don’t claim to write an article about it and do a bad job.”
He didn’t claim to write an article about black comics or black comics creators, he claimed to write an article on diversity in comics, which I’m happy to say includes more than just you and your poorly-written comic.
Also, I have deleted your doubled post. You’re welcome.
Adan Jimenez January 7th, 2007
P.S. Way to go Guy. I was hoping I wouldn’t be the only staffer to say something.
And as Guy said (and this really should go without mentioning, but Jon gets antsy sometimes), these are my views and not PCS’ as a whole.
david brothers January 7th, 2007
Why wasn’t the wedding of Luke Cage and Jessica Jones heralded with such fanfare? They’re a mixed race couple. Surely that’s more progressive than a same race couple, no?
For what it’s worth, in Big Two comics, a same-race couple is actually more progressive than a mixed race couple. There’s a real dearth of black couples at the Big Two.
Laura Hudson January 7th, 2007
I think the real question is: Ragnell, did you ever read a Storm book…ever?
Have you read Storm in Black Panther… lately? Seriously, are we reading the same book? There’s a reason that a lot of people, myself included, take issue with the way Storm is being presented in this title, as discussed by both Ragnell and Adan. The instances you cite do nothing to refute those points.
Because we would need a well-written and informative overview of diversity in the industry, as opposed to a thinly veiled excuse to write yet another whiny assed fanboy rant. No offense to Loren; it’s his blog and God knows I do enough of my own whiny assed fangirl rants. But I don’t try to pass them off as anything BUT whiny assed fangirl rants.
Would that rightly characterize what you’re saying right now?
Also, I would have said that the “ball-busting bitch” comment was very revealing about Hudlin’s attitude towards women, except that he already reveals it pretty much every month in Black Panther. Nice to see it verbalized so succinctly, though.
Kevin January 7th, 2007
I am a 34 year old fanboy — the prototypical white male. I have two white sons and a black daughter and there is nothing for her to read. As someone who works in TV (which also has a crappy diversity record), those of us who love comics as a medium need to do EVERYTHING in our power to broaden the market. A huge part of this is welcoming other voices. Mr. Hudlin is an accomplished person in an industry where everything is stacked against you (no matter your color). He is writing comics, presumably from a very pure place, as he can already direct films or run BET for rent money. Marvel is also, presumably, trying to make some noise by adding Mr. Hudlin’s voice to the usual suspects. From a corporate POV, if Hudlin’s choices just piss everyone off, they will go back to their core demo. I’m not saying not to criticize Mr. Hudlin’s work, but to emphasize the fact that Marvel doesn’t have a major black female character being written by a black female, to add balance to Black Panther, not that Mr. Hudlin is not servicing Storm well in Black Panther. As the article correctly points out, Storm is now a character in Black Panther. That’s not Mr. Hudlin’s fault, it’s Marvel’s fault that shifting Storm leaves such a gap in their universe.
Frankly, I’ve been reading lots of 70’s comics (I’m a sucker for Gene Colan), and as obvious and pandering as many of the choices are, they represent more honest and well-meaning attempts at diversity than is currently the case in 99% of mainstream comics. Eventually, even awkward diversity leads to good diversity (Robby Robertson would be a case in point).
Bottom line — don’t like Mr. Hudlin’s work? Push for more African-American voices (not just characters, but writers) in mainstream comics. If you just hammer him, he’ll go away, and another white fanboy will replace him. And the comic universe will continue to get more insular and more constricted and older, until it dies the death it deserves.
And on a side note, while I like breasts as much as the next guy, do they need to be everywhere? Comic stores really are minefields for dads and their daughters.
Jennifer January 7th, 2007
Laura, not only do I read BP religiously, I’m a subscriber. And it’s funny how you “take issues” with Storm, but while I was able to name three examples of the fangirly crying about Storm being a doormat, you were unable ot answer with a single one. As for Hudlin’s comment of a “ball busting bitch”, he’s right. There’s a time to bitch out your mate and a time to let it slide. Storm chose to let it slide. It’s not the big deal that wannabe feminists made it out to be. In fact, it was downright patronizing. Only a ball busting bitch would’ve seen it as submissive.
By the way, I’m really sick of the Hudlin bashers bringing up the Great Ghost of Christopher Priest, because when I wanted to talk about BP THEN, nunna y’all suckas were anywhere to be found.
Jennifer January 7th, 2007
Why wasn’t the wedding of Luke Cage and Jessica Jones heralded with such fanfare? They’re a mixed race couple. Surely that’s more progressive than a same race couple, no?
Probably because Luke and Jessica have no chemistry and their marriage (and the circumstances behind it) is a big ass joke. A BORING big ass joke at that.
Jennifer January 7th, 2007
You want examples of your misogynistic tendencies towards Storm? Fine. How about when Namor tells her to quiet down because the men are talking?
What he said was “Men do no have the luxury of small talk, my dear.” then IMMEDIATELY apologized and called Storm a “true warrior”. In that same issue, Storm confronted Namor about his love for Sue Richards and told him that he wanted to use T’Challa to do the job that Namor himself was incapable of doing. Yeah, that was REALLY submissive right there! Right up there with referring to the Civil War as a “witch hunt” on national television when just seconds earlier, T’Challa gave a safe “no comment” answer. That Storm is just a DOORMAT where her husband is concerned!
Or the aforementioned Dr. Doom meeting, where Ororo helping T’Challa is a threat to his masculinity?
Ororo helping T’Challa was a threat to his PRIDE, which has been presented as his biggest flaw. Storm didn’t even want to go to Latveria, and she was the one who not only saved her husband’s ass, but had to FLY HIM OUT OF THE CASTLE! No wonder he looked like a whipped little boy on the last page – he WAS a whipped little boy! A stupid little boy whose ego nearly got his new wife and him killed. Yes, Storm could’ve admonished him. She could’ve chewed him out. She could’ve lectured him. For all we know, she just may have off-panel. But first, she chose to diffuse the situation. That’s what opens a person up for dialogue, not finger-pointing and accusations. That’s the kind of woman Storm is. And you notice that Storm never apologized for what she did; she never said “I won’t do that again” and where was she in #20? Right by her husband’s side, that’s where. If BP is such a misogynist, why didn’t he tell her to stay home?
Need more?
Actually, we still need ONE.
Laura Hudson January 7th, 2007
Laura, not only do I read BP religiously, I’m a subscriber. And it’s funny how you “take issues” with Storm, but while I was able to name three examples of the fangirly crying about Storm being a doormat, you were unable ot answer with a single one.
As I mentioned in my post, Ragnell and Adan had already cited numerous instances, which I referenced rather than repeating. Also, I think you actually cited three instances of how Storm wasn’t being a doormat. Regardless, the point isn’t that Storm never ever acts like Storm, it’s that she too often breaks character, and does so flagrantly.
As for Hudlin’s comment of a “ball busting bitch”, he’s right. There’s a time to bitch out your mate and a time to let it slide. Storm chose to let it slide.
Sure, you’ve got to pick your battles–the really important ones, for example. And this was a pretty important one, one that goes to the core of Storm’s character and to many people’s criticisms of its latest iteration in Black Panther. Kisses don’t resolve serious conflicts in relationships–at best, they smooth things over temporarily. Smooches might make T’Challa feel better at that particular instant, but it won’t prevent his threatened pride from becoming an issue over and over again. Storm’s smart enough to know that.
It’s not the big deal that wannabe feminists made it out to be. In fact, it was downright patronizing. Only a ball busting bitch would’ve seen it as submissive.
Wow… I guess you’re right. At first I didn’t think so, but now you’ve won me over with your unassailable logic and ad hominem attacks.
Jennifer January 7th, 2007
As I mentioned in my post, Ragnell and Adan had already cited numerous instances, which I referenced rather than repeating.
Yes, and not a single one of them holds as much as a drop of water. Ragnell’s rewriting of #19 would make for great fanfic (actually, it would’ve made for horrible fanfic), but not for comic writing.
Regardless, the point isn’t that Storm never ever acts like Storm, it’s that she too often breaks character, and does so flagrantly.
No, she really does NOT. We are seeing another side of Storm – a Storm in unfamiliar territory. Number one, she’s in love and the last relationship she was was years ago; number two, she is not only the most important and influential mutant alive, but she’s also the queen of the wealthiest nation on earth – a nation that is very political. Being T’Challa’s wife isn’t going to cut it. She has to be a QUEEN. Oh, and those people she’s going to be lording over? Aren’t very fond of her. Not only is she is foreigner, she’s AMERICAN. A black American with long, bone-straight white hair and ice blue eyes. Oh, and she’s a mutant to boot. Only a complete fool would walk into that situation with an attitude of IM IN UR CUNTRY FUKKING UR KING and try to run things. If she “breaks character” (and I have no idea what the hell you’re alluding to there), it’s because she is under some serious pressure. And that was before the Civil War!
Sure, you’ve got to pick your battles–the really important ones, for example. And this was a pretty important one, one that goes to the core of Storm’s character and to many people’s criticisms of its latest iteration in Black Panther.
1)”Many people” doesn’t bolster your side. Assuming that 1 out of every 5 Storm fans love BP and 4 out of 5 hate it, that doesn’t make your opinion any more valid than mine.
2) This argument did not need to go down. Why? Because Storm’s point was MADE the minute the Doombots surrounded them. It hit T’Challa that he had screwed up ROYALLY, and not only put himself in danger, but the woman he cherished so much. So he gets into his pigheaded mentality to take on Doom man-to-man…and he still effs up. T’Challa was humiliated – completely PWN3D, and all in front of Storm. Did you really think that was the time for rational discussion? T’Challa wouldn’t have heard a word Storm said!
Kisses don’t resolve serious conflicts in relationships–at best, they smooth things over temporarily. Smooches might make T’Challa feel better at that particular instant, but it won’t prevent his threatened pride from becoming an issue over and over again.
What’s wrong with making your husband feel better at that moment? Someone said that Storm had a “doe eyed look” on her face. Bullshit! I know that look. It’s the “you’re lucky I didn’t break my nail or else I’d be all over your stupid ass right now” look. Combine that with the look on T’Challa’s face like Storm just beat him in a foot race, and you have an excellent post-fight scene. The look on Storm’s face clearly says “You nearly got me killed, and YOU’RE mad?” Yes, T’Challa’s thought process was irrational and dangerous, but his FEELINGS were very real. There was simply no need to get in his ass right then, and the silence would’ve been even worse. T’Challa would’ve had time to stew…and brood…and go over it all in his head…and get angrier and more humiliated. So Storm just cut it all off right then and there. The air is clear; the laughter starts, the conversation begins to flow, MINUS the resentment that “we HAVE to talk!” would’ve brought on.
We don’t know what was discussed afterwards – I’m sure it was a long trip. But just like in any real relationship (especially a marriage), you don’t get to know those things. (”Whew, that was close!” or” What were you thinking?” or” I didn’t mean to yell at you like that, it’s just that…”) All you see is a publicly united front.
Storm’s smart enough to know that.
Absolutely. She knows how to handle her husband, which is why it hasn’t been an issue ever since. I recall Storm giving quite the “love tap” in the very next issue.
Wow… I guess you’re right.
I usually am.
At first I didn’t think so, but now you’ve won me over with your unassailable logic and ad hominem attacks.
Who are you, that you’re so important that I would want to win you over?
Adan Jimenez January 7th, 2007
re: to Kevin, the prototypical white male with three children
I understand one’s desire for diversity. I am a Mexican male and we are more under-represented than blacks are, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to love every Mexican character or Mexican writer that shows up. I’m going to treat these characters and writers like I do every other character and writer: if they’re good, I’ll say so, if they suck, I’ll say so.
Both Blue Beetle and White Tiger, while I was excited at first, aren’t very good books. I’m not going to blindly follow them and sing their good praises simply because they’re Mexican. I’m going to say they suck, and then I’m going to say I would like good Mexican characters.
I understand the desire for diversity, but I understand the desire for good comics more, and Hudlin is not good comics.
david January 7th, 2007
I’d just like to point out that when a character suddenly acts one way without any kind of precedence or preparation (be it previous similar actions or foreshadowing by the writer of said upcoming actions), that’s basically the character being ‘out of character’, not ’showing a side of the character that up until now has been unseen’. I think there should be some level of consistency to what has come before.
And Jennifer, the way you’re arguing, your basically rationalizing. Your assuming that all these justifications you have are the justifications that Hudlin had, or that Storm has (as a character). You’re putting your own thoughts into the work. Which, as you might know, may or may not be true (we’ll never really know, it’s all a matter of perspective).
So justifying what happened by saying ‘oh, that’s just another way for Storm to be the Storm that she is’, can’t really hold up as any real rebuttal.
Why? Because while your arguments are all pure speculation, Ragnell’s, Loren’s, and all the others claiming sexism have theirs based on empirical data – that Storm has never acted this way, or has never been hinted to have acted this way.
So inasmuch as everything you said (which, personally for me, is a good way of seeing things) is true for YOUR worldview, that’s not a worldview that can generally be accepted by everyone the same way everyone can agree with empirical statements such as ‘Storm is black’, or ‘Black Panther is the king of Wakanda’, or ‘Storm has never done anything of the sort, and never showed to have an inclination of doing anything of the sort’.
That being the case, the allegation that Storm has been written misogynisitcally out of character, DOES have some evidence to it. Only probably not in your interpretation of the events.
Loren January 7th, 2007
What’s funny is that, while I love a spirited debated, you’d think that the only thing I wrote about was the Black Panther and Storm Wedding of the Century extravaganza. There were 9 other topics that I wrote about as well. :)
Guy LeCharles Gonzalez January 7th, 2007
Just goes to show that it’s not only fans who have an exaggerated sense of entitlement.
Reginald Hudlin January 7th, 2007
Guy LeCharles Gonzalez – Did I attack this website? No I didn’t. In fact, I’ve done promotional drops for this site. I like it and support it.
Are you saying that your site – which CRITIQUES comic books – cannot in turn be criticized? If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
I’m glad you had an article about diversity in comics. But I find it really buggy when even in the context of “people of color” or marginalized or oppressed constituencies, black people still get the short end of the stick. This isn’t about who wins the suffering sweepstakes, I just want everyone to get their shine. There were some painfully obvious omissions, and would expect a more balanced piece about BLACK PANTHER than that.
The author of the article had a very adult response. He acknowledged items he overlooked, and respectfully stood his ground where he disagreed. There’s an example there for all of us.
Loren Javier – Yes, the chattering classes online are accusing T’Challa of sexism. Of course, that doesn’t make it true. Particularly when you look at these comments in the broader contexts of attacks on the book and the marriage.
There are fans who don’t think Storm should be married to anyone, ever. They may have an immature concept of marriage as inherently diminishing of a woman, or just want to leave Storm up on a lonely pedestal.
There are fans who don’t think Storm should be involved with anyone who’s not part of the X Men “family”.
There are fans who aren’t interested in the Black Panther as a character, or think he’s too “C list” to be worthy of their beloved Storm. So of course whenever Storm treats the Panther in a respectful or affectionate way, they scream that she’s being diminished.
What gets brought up a lot, including by you, is that they are offended by Storm marrying a black man. Of course, no one wants to admit that is the source of their discomfort, so there’s a swirl of rationalizations used to justify those feelings. But your admitted first reaction – that marrying another black character diminishes Storm – is the one worth investigating.
It’s funny that now you guys are complaining about all the responses to this story being about BLACK PANTHER – and saying it’s my fault. Like I said, the real story is happening in front of you but you can’t get enough distance to see it.
Oh, and the poster who complained about BROTHER VOODOO not being in the New Orleans story? He was. Some of my biggest fans are people who complained about the book – until they read it.
Laura Hudson January 7th, 2007
Who are you, that you’re so important that I would want to win you over?
I assumed that you were arguing so vociferously against my negative comments about Black Panther (and those of other posters as well) because you wanted to convince us that you were right and we were wrong. Unless of course you really just wanted to hear yourself talk.
Loren Collins January 7th, 2007
Reginald Hudlin said…
If you don’t care about black comics, or black comics creators, don’t claim to write an article about it and do a bad job.
Maybe you didn’t read the 9/10 of Loren’s piece that wasn’t about your series, but somehow it seems you missed that nowhere did he claim to be writing an article about creators at all.
The ten subjects profiled were all chosen because of the diversity displayed in their pages, not because of their creative teams. Sure, he didn’t talk about Dwayne McDuffie’s mini-series, but he also didn’t talk about “Wonder Woman” because Allan Heinberg is writing it or about any of Greg Pak’s series just because he’s Asian. You’ll also notice that he didn’t mention that All-New Atom is written by a woman, or that Marc Andreyko is gay, or even that you’re black (even though you seem to claim that’s why you were chosen when you say “Well, the article does talk about BLACK PANTHER, the only mainstream book about a black character written by a black person.”) The closest he gets to talking about creators was in addressing the controversy over the Minx line’s lack of female creators. But that’s a side note, because Minx is listed due to its target audience and mission, not its creative staff.
So then, of the five examples you proffered as things Loren missed, how many acually fit within the scope of the article as originally written?
None. Four examples involve only diverse creators, not noteworthy diverse work. The only one that actually involved diversity on the page was Kyle Baker’s “Nat Turner,” which would certainly belong except that, as was previously pointed out, it didn’t come out in 2006. Making it (as well as the two examples of future books) entirely out of place in a retrospective on the comics of 2006.
Now, an article about minority creators in 2006 would certainly be a good thing, and it seems that you’ve piqued Loren’s interest enough that we might get one. Or maybe in retrospect this article could’ve been more expansive, and could have covered creators too.
But there’s absolutely no ground whatsoever to claim that he wrote an article about minority creators and omitted the black ones.
Adan Jimenez January 7th, 2007
“Oh, and the poster who complained about BROTHER VOODOO not being in the New Orleans story? He was. Some of my biggest fans are people who complained about the book – until they read it.”
You’re right, and I apologize for my misstatement. I re-read that arc and forgot to take him out of my comment. But that just makes my point. Why wasn’t Gambit in this storyarc? He’s from New Orleans, he has family and friends there. Why wasn’t he invited? Does he not meet some of your requirements?
Loren Collins January 7th, 2007
Addendum: I missed a sixth example given, that of the “first time ever team of three of the most famous black superheroes ever” in post-Katrina New Orleans. Which is an in-story example (even if ‘first three-way team-up between Characters A, B & C’ is of questionable notoriety), and would thus be the one and only example within the scope of Loren’s article.
Loren January 7th, 2007
Mr. Hudlin,
What gets brought up a lot, including by you, is that they are offended by Storm marrying a black man. Of course, no one wants to admit that is the source of their discomfort, so there’s a swirl of rationalizations used to justify those feelings. But your admitted first reaction – that marrying another black character diminishes Storm – is the one worth investigating.
Absolutely. I do not pretend not to be racist, sexist or even homophobic. In fact, I mention it quite often on my blog that everybody has the potential for this and I am perfectly willing to cast the mirror on myself. I admit I’m not perfect. I try to look at my “isms” and, perhaps, a blog entry investigating this very thing is in order.
However, part of my questioning about this particular pairing is because there didn’t seem to be the history between them. Yes, I realize that there has been some interactions, but, if you read a previous blog entry of mine, I did say that, after reading the Uncanny X-Men annual that centered on Storm’s decision, I began to realize that maybe I was being too harsh. And, I went back to reading both the Storm mini-series and the Black Panther tie-ins to the Wedding of the Century and I DO think that they do a good job of pairing these two together. I apologize if I didn’t mention that in this particular entry. Again, if I excluded things, it was mainly for space. And, to be fair to you, I should have mentioned that the Wedding itself was a monumental occasion in terms of black representations in comic books. And, I absolutely hear David Brothers’s comment that it is a BIGGER deal, especially for the Big Two, that two people of African descent are married than if they married somebody of another race.
However, I will continue to stick to my guns about Storm. Perhaps it was not your intention, but, obviously, there are a lot of fans out there that see Storm’s continual conceding to Black Panther as uncharacteristic. I agree…it does set a bad precedent. Just as you have the right to be angry with what I’ve written and what I have excluded, people have the right to wonder what is going on with Storm.
You also said, It’s funny that now you guys are complaining about all the responses to this story being about BLACK PANTHER – and saying it’s my fault.
I don’t think anybody ever said it was your fault. You did, however, make it come across that this was the only part of the 10 point overview that I wrote.
I do care about black people and I do care about their representation in comic books…including Storm who is both black AND a strong woman. And, I will assure you that I will cast a mirror on myself about how I did not expand more on the wedding itself and the cultural importance of it.
Like I said, I would be willing to discuss with you more, one on one, your intentions for Storm and your disappointment with fan reaction. I am not that unreasonable of a person and I do try to see where people are coming from. Mr. Hudlin, you must realize that, as fans, we get very invested in the stories and the characters and our passions come out. We, in turn, have to understand that you, as a creator, can only take so much criticism. I do think that there is a middle ground we can all find here and I, for one, would be willing to engage in that conversation.
Loren
Yaw January 7th, 2007
Hmm I really question if any of you REALLY know Storm’s history.
Panther to Storm”
“This is a conflict between Von Doom and myself. Do not interfere.”
Black Panther #19
Storm to Cyclops:
“I would assume it would mean little if I told you this was a matter of honor–and that I must confront Candra myself?”
X-men (2nd series) #60
Apparently Storm understands what a fight of honor is about and didn’t feel the need to discuss the matter. Seems to me that her characterization was pretty accurate.
For that matter this is not the first time Black Panther told others not to interfere with a fight he was in.
Learn the characters before you criticize please.
Thanks.
Yaw
Yaw January 7th, 2007
Dear Adan,
Do you read Marvel comics? (I’m serious).
“You’re right, and I apologize for my misstatement. I re-read that arc and forgot to take him out of my comment. But that just makes my point. Why wasn’t Gambit in this storyarc? He’s from New Orleans, he has family and friends there. Why wasn’t he invited? Does he not meet some of your requirements?”
As of summer of 2005, X-men and all mutants were wrapped up in the House of M/Decimation. Whether or not all mutants were involved in the storyline they were ALL affected by it. Gambit may have retained his powers but during the Decimation storyline, he was turned into a Rider of Apocalypse. The new Gambit care a distorted version of himself. His last appearance was as a enemy of the X-men and humanity in April 2006 in X-men #183. When the New Orleans arc premiered Gambit was tied up in the return of Apocalypse/Decimation arc.
I seriously doubt the X-men editorial staff would have allowed Gambit to be used in anything at the time.
Thanks.
Yaw
Loren January 7th, 2007
Yaw, you’re example about Storm is the best example for the “Storm is not diminished” side I’ve seen in regards to the whole Doom incident. Thank you for sharing it. It’s good food for thought.
Jennifer January 8th, 2007
And Jennifer, the way you’re arguing, your basically rationalizing.
Or maybe I just don’t see it the way you do.
Ragnell’s, Loren’s, and all the others claiming sexism have theirs based on empirical data – that Storm has never acted this way, or has never been hinted to have acted this way.
AHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
*wheezing*
Jennifer January 8th, 2007
I would be willing to discuss with you more, one on one, your intentions for Storm and your disappointment with fan reaction.
The “fan reaction” has been overwhelmingly positive. The detractors of the book were never fans in the first place; it’s just that BP’s marriage to Storm gave them a reason to bitch…and bitch…and bitch…and bitch some more. And then do even more bitching. Perhaps you should be discussing that.
James January 8th, 2007
Really great discussion here. Couple of points….
1) DC’s new attempts at diversity in comics suffer because the writers too often refuse authentic minority characterizations to rehash tired stereotypes. The Great Ten are the most racist superhero team I’ve seen in years, period. Mother of Champions literally takes the nativist American ‘yellow peril’ stereotypes to its most bizarre racist conclusion, and DC should be truly ashamed for allowing such filth in their publications. The unabashed Orientalism and faux spirituality shown by that team replace authenticity with a Western man’s xenophobic interpretation of Chinese superheroes, and we readers are all the poorer for it.
DC’s minority superheroes too often lacked drama – early issues of The All New Atom bored me, as Ryan Choi’s done-to-death Yul Kwon model minority rendition left this reader without much by way of plot or character development. Early on, I wonder what was more boring, Gail Simone’s writing or John Byrne’s art? (The art won.) Really, Choi was too perfect, and this reader wished that within that perfection he could deal with being a international student at an American university. I looked for culture shock, and found only sizing belt issues. Maybe I should have given it more of a chance, but twenty-something budgets have little room for weak writing.
This is the major problem – few writers prove willing to write minority characters that make sense from minority perspectives, and cultural inauthenticity results. That’s why Jason Rusch appears in a damn chicken suit in issue #6 of Firestorm (I hear it’s better now, but they lost me long ago) and why Batwoman fights crime in stiletto heels and MAC firetruck red lipstick.
2) I seriously need to read American Born Chinese. Damn, everyone loves that book! I need a copy!
James January 8th, 2007
The criticism of Storm’s characterization in post-wedding Black Panther issues in this wonderful year-end wrap-up was sound, but I bet time constraints didn’t allow for more diverse opinions in the article. The Storm/ Black Panther wedding section seemed kinda one-sided to me. After reading the comments here though, I’ve gotta say that some comics are not for everyone. You don’t read Marvel’s Civil War to search for pro-Black masculinity, with Goliath’s death and Cap’s “Quiet Cage, I’m thinking!” admonishment in issue #5. Don’t read DC’s 52 for respectable portrayals of the Chinese (unless you are Rosie O’ Donnell, in which case you’d probably see nothing wrong).
Most comics are not written with the cultural sensibilities of minority communities in mind. The first trade of Mr. Hudlin’s run on BP made it clear: he’s writing the Black Captain America, a strong Black man’s vision of the perfect Black man, with enough human frailty to keep things interesting.
Reading any comic with the expectation that the character you like will receive the characterization you expect always proves a recipe for disappointment. I can’t open any mainstream comic involving a Black male character and expect that the treatment of Black masculinity provided will be to my satisfaction. Why feminist fangirls believe this does not apply to the characters they identify with perplexes me. (White privilege anyone?)
I don’t believe ideal Black masculinity requires female inferiority in any sense, but I think it’s debatable at best to find such trends in the post-wedding BP issues. In order to show healthy, ideal Black masculinity, it’s possible Mr. Hudlin depicts Storm’s feminism as one more attuned and complementary toward a heterosexual marriage’s natural gender issues than American feminism’s more flamboyant strands. In essence, a natural Black feminist like Storm may engage her husband’s bruised ego without lightning, but with good sense, and retain all the respect a woman of her stature demands.
Of course, that may mean no bras are burned, but Black feminism was always more about getting the job done in the workplace and the home (Black female personal labor defining their self-worth since slavery) than loud protests within academic ivory. Expecting Ororo Monroe to “lay down the law” to solve a disagreement presents a perverse expectation on Storm’s Black feminism, one that would relegate an African goddess to a finger-snapping, gum-popping, neck-twisting Flavor of Love contestant. Authenticity’s better.
Jennifer January 8th, 2007
In order to show healthy, ideal Black masculinity, it’s possible Mr. Hudlin depicts Storm’s feminism as one more attuned and complementary toward a heterosexual marriage’s natural gender issues than American feminism’s more flamboyant strands. In essence, a natural Black feminist like Storm may engage her husband’s bruised ego without lightning, but with good sense, and retain all the respect a woman of her stature demands.
*stands up and applauds*
Similar criticism was made during the “Matrix” sequels, which portrayed a young, black woman (Zee, played by Nona Gaye) having an argument with her husband (Link, played by Harold Perrineau) that didn’t involve shouting, cursing, or threats. And in the end, that young, black woman – stay with me, staaaay with me – SUPPORTED HER HUSBAND’S DECISION. I wondered why such anger and vitriol was directed to a pair of characters that didn’t make or break the story in the least, and it wasn’t until much later that it hit me: the portrayal of a loving, harmonious black couple is downright foreign to so many. It’s not the dislike of Storm and Panther that is so disturbing. It’s the vicious, ongoing, frothing HATRED that lets me know that this really isn’t about Storm as much as it is about a black man who punked out a bunch of white men and got the girl. Forge, Wolverine, Gambit, etc. all had their chances to hook up with Storm. They didn’t. T’Challa went for it, and he won. White people won’t ever forgive Hudlin for that. And people here can say it’s about characterization, or feminism, or out of character portrayals, but until they can admit that’s just bullshit (like it was when Zee was being slammed for being “weak” and “whiny” and “submissive” – what is it with white women and that word, anyway?), then we’re going to be going around in circles for years to come.
VeloraCat January 8th, 2007
I question the idea that the dearth of black characters makes the black pairing somehow more progressive. This may make the interracial pairing less progressive since it is more likely to arise from necessity than progressiveness, but it does not make the traditional pairing, even if it is the right one, more progressive, even in comparison.
Hayal January 8th, 2007
>one more attuned and complementary toward a heterosexual marriage’s natural gender issues
And there you go. That is what people object to. In reality, there is no “natural” gender issue. There are just two people, either being equal or one being slightly more dominant than the other. Gender doesn’t decide who is what, there, the suggestion that it *does* is what is problematic here.
The issue isn’t that a random black female is acting that way – the issue is STORM doing it like that. Just a sign of bad writing there. It’s OOC for her. Simple as that.
Yaw January 8th, 2007
To Hayal:
“And there you go. That is what people object to. In reality, there is no “natural” gender issue. There are just two people, either being equal or one being slightly more dominant than the other. Gender doesn’t decide who is what, there, the suggestion that it *does* is what is problematic here.”
Actually that is false. There are “natural” gender issues. Every society attaches meaning to human action. In other words CULTURE defines a person’s role in society. Gender itself is a social construct. “Sex” refers to the biological difference based on the X and Y chromosomes. “Natural” is simply a reference to the normative form of behavior.
“The issue isn’t that a random black female is acting that way – the issue is STORM doing it like that. Just a sign of bad writing there. It’s OOC for her. Simple as that. ”
What is OOC for her? Please in detail explain what she is doing that is OOC. The detractors of the marriage bark but have no bite. They say she is being written OOC but fail to provide substantial evidence. The little evidence that is provided is easily refuted as I noted before.
ANd oh yeah to Adan:
“And if we’re talking about global tragedies, why doesn’t the Black Panther go to Darfur instead, a region of the world where Bad Shit Is Going Down that’s actually in the continent he lives in?”
Well by the history of Black Panther, they are isolationist and care mainly about Wakanda. His exposure to the outside world has mainly been in America. With that said, by the BP history alone he has more of an attachment to African Americans than he does continental Africans. Sad but true. Blame Kirby, Roy Thomas, Don MacGregor, Ed Hannigan, and Priest for this. You can’t blame Hudlin yet because his run isn’t over. Once it is and he doesn’t address continental African issues then feel free to burn him in effigy.
Until then, complain about the fact that S.H.I.E.L.D. a global international terrorist organization geared towards keeps the WORLD safe, allows the conflict diamond trade, the Sudanese conflict, the global trafficking of women for slavery/prostitution, the global drug trade to continue while hunting down heroes like the Prowler and Typeface because they refuse to register themselves as heroes in America.
Hmmmmm...... January 9th, 2007
“But I don’t try to pass them off as anything BUT whiny assed fangirl rants. ”
Which in the past have gotten you banned from Wikipedia, Comixfan, Superhero Hype, Nightcrawlers, Scans_Daily, Newsarama, FandomWank, and numerous other communitites for the way you treat people while doing said ranting.
Adan Jimenez January 9th, 2007
“As of summer of 2005, X-men and all mutants were wrapped up in the House of M/Decimation. Whether or not all mutants were involved in the storyline they were ALL affected by it. Gambit may have retained his powers but during the Decimation storyline, he was turned into a Rider of Apocalypse. The new Gambit care a distorted version of himself. His last appearance was as a enemy of the X-men and humanity in April 2006 in X-men #183. When the New Orleans arc premiered Gambit was tied up in the return of Apocalypse/Decimation arc.
I seriously doubt the X-men editorial staff would have allowed Gambit to be used in anything at the time.
I seriously doubt the X-men editorial staff would have allowed Gambit to be used in anything at the time.”
If I’d wanted fanwank, I would have provided it myself, so I’d like to hear the answer from Hudlin himself, thanks.
…but since you said something, it’s only proper to respond. Even if Hudlin (and, really, Marvel as a whole) hadn’t already displayed a blatant disregard for continuity, a simple editorial note at the beginning of the arc saying something like “This takes place before the events in X-men #(whatever started the Blood of Apocalypse arc)” would have been more than enough to explain it away. As Hudlin has said, this was the only story about post-Katrina New Orleans and Gambit is the most well-known character in Marvel’s stable that is from that city and actually has established friends and family in the city, unlike the Black Panther, Luke Cage, and Blade.
So, again I ask, why wasn’t Gambit there?
And oh yeah, I’ve complained about S.H.I.E.L.D. for a very long time now. We’re on the same page there. It’s like Marvel forgot this is a WORLD peacekeeping force, not the US’ military lapdogs. However, that doesn’t explain why the Black Panther isn’t in Darfur. Your isolationist argument would hold more water if the Black Panther actually was isolationist instead of just saying so. An isolationist nation makes no treaties and allies, and helps no side in a war. The Black Panther’s involvement in the anti-reg side in the Civil War (which is an act of war, by the way) makes him the least isolationist regent in all of Marvel with the sole possible exceptions of Namor and Dr. Doom, who are also fictional characters.
I do concede that the Black Panther’s involvement in said Civil War is most likely not Hudlin’s fault, as it is probably an editorial edict and Mark Millar is a ponce.
Regardless, I don’t think the Black Panther’s involvement in New Orleans instead of Darfur is because the character is more attune with African-Americans than Africans.
Yaw January 9th, 2007
Blame Storm for his involvement. She’s American and she influenced him as well as the death of Goliath ( a friend). Issue #23 made it abundantly clear that the Wakandan government doesn’t support his actions in the war and believe it to be a reflection of his marriage to an outsider.
I don’t believe I ever said more “attuned” I said more attached. There is a difference. And like I said before, until Hudlin’s run is over he can’t be criticized for stories he hasn’t made.
As far as the Gambit issue is concerned, his last involvement in the city ended with the destruction of the Unified Guilds and further distancing from the guild. Call it fanwank, if you will but based on comic knowledge, there little reason to think that Gambit would be involved in a New Orleans cleanup. Why would there be a need for an X-men editorial note in a BLACK PANTHER BOOK!!!??
Hudlin haters make the most bizarre requests/arguments that I have ever heard.
Adan Jimenez January 9th, 2007
“I don’t believe I ever said more “attuned” I said more attached. There is a difference.”
No there isn’t; they are thematic synonyms. But if you think so, then just switch out the word in the sentence and pretend I wrote that instead. It still says what I want it to.
“Blame Storm for his involvement. She’s American and she influenced him as well as the death of Goliath ( a friend).”
She’s also an African goddess from Kenya who, before she married the Black Panther, was in Africa helping out Africans. Hurm…
“Why would there be a need for an X-men editorial note in a BLACK PANTHER BOOK!!!??”
I’m not sure. But I assume Black Panther has its own editor who can put in a note when a character from a different book in the shared universe both characters inhabit shows up in the cast to explain away a possible continuity problem. This used to happen all the time back when Marvel Editorial actually gave a damn about continuity.
(Although if there is no editor on Black Panther, it certainly would explain some things.)
“Hudlin haters make the most bizarre requests/arguments that I have ever heard.”
Yeah, “Please write Storm as if whe were Storm and not some rug,” and “Please explain why Marvel’s most famous member of New Orleans is not at the city finding out if some of his friends are still alive,” are ridiculous requests. They’re almost as bizarre as asking Mark Millar to please remember that S.H.I.E.L.D. doesn’t belong to the US.
And here’s another bizarre request: I want Hudlin’s answer to this, not yours (although, I’m afraid he’s not coming back and I won’t get my wish. Oh darn.)
Yaw January 10th, 2007
“She’s also an African goddess from Kenya who, before she married the Black Panther, was in Africa helping out Africans. Hurm…”
Yes so far what have we seen Black Panther doing in Africa.
1. Took down a dictator of a neighboring country.
2. Aiding young girls along with Storm who were going to be sent into prostitution slavery.
3. Giving children (with Storm) with missing limbs hi-tech artificial ones.
Has he been depicted as doing alot? Maybe not but Hudlin has stated in an interview that after the Civil War that the book will focus on their unfinished business in AFrica. Hudlin has been trying to make Panther a major player in the MU. Personally I doubt this could be accomplished focusing on a Black hero “saving Africa.” But I guess that is more fanwank. Seriously noone ever complains about PRiest’s run where BP was never in Africa, outside of Wakanda. NOT ONCE.
But that is all from me, I’m not Hudlin so my statements mean nothing.
Peace
Yaw January 10th, 2007
Oops by the way, attune and attach have too very different connotations and definitions, look them up. The difference in my statement being that he is attached to African Americans due to personal ties established in his frequent and lengthy stays in America whereas he is not necessarily “attuned” to them as he isn’t naturally responsive tot the culture of African Americans itself.
Ok Peace and have fun.
James January 10th, 2007
“And there you go. That is what people object to. In reality, there is no “natural” gender issue. There are just two people, either being equal or one being slightly more dominant than the other. Gender doesn’t decide who is what, there, the suggestion that it *does* is what is problematic here.
The issue isn’t that a random black female is acting that way – the issue is STORM doing it like that. Just a sign of bad writing there. It’s OOC for her. Simple as that.” – Hayal
See, this is a great example of someone missing the entire point of a comment. Look, rightly or wrongly, for most African Americans traditional gender roles exist, in my opinion. I think its logical that Mr. Hudlin may draw upon this in his characterization of the marital dynamic between Black Panther and Storm.
No one says this culturally distinct African American dynamic must involve male dominance or female subservience. No one. The only point is that what may resemble base misogyny to many online feminist fangirls in the recent pages of Black Panther in reference to Storm’s characterization may actually be an unfamilar cultural dynamic.
Don’t allow possible ignorance of Blackness to cloud your judgment.
Loren January 10th, 2007
James,
You wrote:
See, this is a great example of someone missing the entire point of a comment. Look, rightly or wrongly, for most African Americans traditional gender roles exist, in my opinion. I think its logical that Mr. Hudlin may draw upon this in his characterization of the marital dynamic between Black Panther and Storm.
No one says this culturally distinct African American dynamic must involve male dominance or female subservience. No one. The only point is that what may resemble base misogyny to many online feminist fangirls in the recent pages of Black Panther in reference to Storm’s characterization may actually be an unfamilar cultural dynamic.
Actually, this is a very good point and very well reasoned. Unfortunately, I think we chop all our “isms” into individual realms. I honestly don’t think that what Mr. Hudlin wrote was from a bad place or that he was trying to anger women. At the same time, I believe that just because it exists doesn’t mean that women cannot argue against it. Because it might be a cultural standard, does that mean a woman cannot be unsatisfied with the role?
Regardless, you do bring up an excellent point that all people looking at diversity should remember…that cultural values are important to take into account.
James January 10th, 2007
Loren, I completely agree that women should challenge sexism in comics wherever they find it; just because a cultural disconnect may exist does not exempt creators of color or comic creators working with characters of color from charges of sexism, when they make sense.
I guess what grates on me in this discussion was a) the fact that so much more was discussed in this article and people fixated on Storm’s role in Black Panther, and b) the unneeded vehemence of some detractors of Hudlin’s characterization of Storm. I honestly believe that some feminist fangirls only want to see flashy, combative, antagonistic feminism from female protagonists in comics, regardless of how that kind of protest march feminism affects stories.
I’m tired of that – Storm doesn’t have to electrocute every man who disagrees with her to prove she’s a feminist. If a person wants to say that Mr. Hudlin’s characterization of Storm doesn’t work, they must rely on two kinds of evidence: past renditions of Storm in other comics, and a cursory understanding of the sexual dynamics of modern Black couples. Both are important here, especially since we know Mr. Hudlin’s writing an idealized Black masculinity in an idealized African nation. A challenge to the possible sexism of Storm’s rendition here must recognize that different cultural rules than those most comic readers are used to may apply to Black Panther and Storm.
I appreciate that you get this point Loren, but for others in this discussion: challenging sexism in comics is too important to be undercut by cultural ignorance.
Jennifer January 10th, 2007
Which in the past have gotten you banned from Wikipedia, Comixfan, Superhero Hype, Nightcrawlers, Scans_Daily, Newsarama, FandomWank, and numerous other communitites for the way you treat people while doing said ranting.
Funny, I post at every single one of those places to this day. *pointing and laughing at the cowardly little anonymouse* But it’s always good to have a fan following me around.
And here’s another bizarre request: I want Hudlin’s answer to this, not yours (although, I’m afraid he’s not coming back and I won’t get my wish. Oh darn.)
What’s stopping YOU from posting at Hudlin’s forum if you want an answer? Too scared to step off your turf?
Look, rightly or wrongly, for most African Americans traditional gender roles exist, in my opinion…[d]on’t allow possible ignorance of Blackness to cloud your judgment.
Amen. As the old saying goes: it’s a black thing. You wouldn’t understand. (And apparently, they don’t.)
Kate Willaert January 10th, 2007
Reginald Hudlin
What Storm did was classy, cool and in control. She made her point and defused the situation instead of being a ball busting bitch. It was a Grown Folks moment.
Jennifer
Similar criticism was made during the “Matrix” sequels, which portrayed a young, black woman (Zee, played by Nona Gaye) having an argument with her husband (Link, played by Harold Perrineau) that didn’t involve shouting, cursing, or threats. And in the end, that young, black woman – stay with me, staaaay with me – SUPPORTED HER HUSBAND’S DECISION. I wondered why such anger and vitriol was directed to a pair of characters that didn’t make or break the story in the least, and it wasn’t until much later that it hit me: the portrayal of a loving, harmonious black couple is downright foreign to so many.
James
Look, rightly or wrongly, for most African Americans traditional gender roles exist, in my opinion. I think its logical that Mr. Hudlin may draw upon this in his characterization of the marital dynamic between Black Panther and Storm.
No one says this culturally distinct African American dynamic must involve male dominance or female subservience. No one. The only point is that what may resemble base misogyny to many online feminist fangirls in the recent pages of Black Panther in reference to Storm’s characterization may actually be an unfamilar cultural dynamic.
Don’t allow possible ignorance of Blackness to cloud your judgment.
Jennifer
Amen. As the old saying goes: it’s a black thing. You wouldn’t understand. (And apparently, they don’t.)
The common theme in these statements from the three of you that really, truly disturbs me — despite James’ insisting it has nothing to do with dominance or subservience — is the insinuation in all these statements that in a “loving, harmonious” black relationship, it is primarily up to the woman to know when to secede in a disagreement, to “defuse the situation” and “support her husband.” And if she instead decides to put her foot down or take a stand during a disagreement, that she is being immature (”Grown Folks moment”) and a “ball-busting bitch.”
My point being, shouldn’t it be equally up to the man to know when to secede a disagreement, and do so preferably the other half of the time, for the sake of — you know — equality?
Or is that one of those “black things” that are hopeless for me to ever understand?
Kate Willaert January 10th, 2007
Reginald Hudlin
Nope, all this article does is parrot complaints about Black Panther and Storm getting married “just because they are black”, which dismisses everything else they are (and all the things they have in common) in lieu of their race, and presumes that a black couple is automatically ghettoization, which is a projection of your own contempt for black love.
Jennifer
It’s the vicious, ongoing, frothing HATRED that lets me know that this really isn’t about Storm as much as it is about a black man who punked out a bunch of white men and got the girl. Forge, Wolverine, Gambit, etc. all had their chances to hook up with Storm.
Which is complete BS, because you both know that if it was her and Bishop hooked up there would’ve been no complaints from the Storm-fans crowd.
The reason for the all the complaints has nothing to do with a disapproval of Storm marrying another black person, but rather because the pairing was so contrived, having to retcon in these “years of history” they shared together via a new mini-series, when she and Bishop knew each other for many years longer naturally (without having to shoehorn in a retcon) just from being on the same team together. Not to mention Bishop has far more in common with Storm than Black Panther, being a mutant, an X-Man, and an actual American citizen.
The thing that really bothers myself and so many of the other Storm fans who’ve raised complaints, is the fact that it seems like Storm was chosen as BP’s wife only because Reginald wanted BP to take a wife, and she happens to be Marvel’s most well-known black superhero.
And before you even prepare to deny that, here’s a statement from Reginald himself from an interview at CBR:
Hudlin and Marvel editorial considered a number of candidates for the object of T’Challa’s affections and future queen of Wakanda. “There were other options considered, but once Ororo became available, then it was the most perfect, really the only choice,” Hudlin said.
And why does BP need a wife, anyways? Reginald explains his reasoning, from the same interview:
“I knew the next logical storyline would be T’Challa looking for a queen. Producing heirs is one of the main jobs of being king, so it would be logical that would be an immediate obligation.”
So in other words, BP’s main reason for taking Storm as his Queen is to meet his baby-making needs?
Or is this one more “black thing” for me to not understand…?
Kate Willaert January 10th, 2007
And on a different topic…
Reginald Hudlin
Nope, all this article does is parrot complaints about Black Panther and Storm getting married “just because they are black”, which dismisses everything else they are (and all the things they have in common) in lieu of their race, and presumes that a black couple is automatically ghettoization, which is a projection of your own contempt for black love.
Jennifer
It’s the vicious, ongoing, frothing HATRED that lets me know that this really isn’t about Storm as much as it is about a black man who punked out a bunch of white men and got the girl. Forge, Wolverine, Gambit, etc. all had their chances to hook up with Storm.
Which is complete BS, because you both know that if it was her and Bishop hooked up there would’ve been no complaints from the Storm-fans crowd.
The reason for the all the complaints has nothing to do with a disapproval of Storm marrying another black person, but rather because the pairing was so contrived, having to retcon in these “years of history” they shared together via a new mini-series, when she and Bishop knew each other for many years longer naturally (without having to shoehorn in a retcon) just from being on the same team together. Not to mention Bishop has far more in common with Storm than Black Panther, being a mutant, an X-Man, and an actual American citizen.
The thing that really bothers myself and so many of the other Storm fans who’ve raised complaints, is the fact that it seems like Storm was chosen as BP’s wife only because Reginald wanted BP to take a wife, and she happens to be Marvel’s most well-known black superhero.
And before you even prepare to deny that, here’s a statement from Reginald himself from an interview at CBR:
Hudlin and Marvel editorial considered a number of candidates for the object of T’Challa’s affections and future queen of Wakanda. “There were other options considered, but once Ororo became available, then it was the most perfect, really the only choice,” Hudlin said.
And why does BP need a wife, anyways? Reginald explains his reasoning, from the same interview:
“I knew the next logical storyline would be T’Challa looking for a queen. Producing heirs is one of the main jobs of being king, so it would be logical that would be an immediate obligation.”
So in other words, BP’s main reason for taking Storm as his Queen is to meet his baby-making needs?
Or is this yet another “black thing” for me to not understand?
Anonymous January 11th, 2007
Jennifer— Only because you make new accounts to hide behind. Your recent runamuck at Comixfan is nothing but bad promotion for Black Panther, and is in no way helping the book, or your cause.
And Storm being chosen so she can pump out babies as a wifely duty?
What kind of message is that sending to female readers?
Jennifer January 11th, 2007
Anonymouse, a coward like you stalks me from place to place, trying to “leak” information that everybody knows in some strange attempt to discredit me year….after year….after year… and doesn’t even have the stones to sign your name – and I’m hurting MY cause? Don’t address me again until you get some balls.
Kate:
Or is this yet another “black thing” for me to not understand?
Yes. Yes, it is. Judging by the tone of your posts, I’d be amazed if you’ve been within a ten mile radius of a black person. Of course, I could be wrong. Let me guess…your best friend is black, right? (Don’t answer that question, by the way. I have very little desire to have a discussion with an idiotic white entitlement bitch who finds black people to be “disturbing”.)
Loren January 11th, 2007
The reason for the all the complaints has nothing to do with a disapproval of Storm marrying another black person, but rather because the pairing was so contrived, having to retcon in these “years of history” they shared together via a new mini-series, when she and Bishop knew each other for many years longer naturally (without having to shoehorn in a retcon) just from being on the same team together. Not to mention Bishop has far more in common with Storm than Black Panther, being a mutant, an X-Man, and an actual American citizen.
I’m not really commenting on the whole statement here because, in theory, I actually agree with it, BUT, just a little piece of trivia here. Bishop is not African American, he is Filipino American. He was born in Tondo, an impoverished part of Manilla, Philippines. It’s a common mistake that people make, but, he was created Filipino by his co-creator Whilce Portacio who, himself is Filipino American.
James January 11th, 2007
“Amen. As the old saying goes: it’s a black thing. You wouldn’t understand. (And apparently, they don’t.)” – Jennifer
While I can appreciate where this is coming from, I do not agree with this sentiment at all. People can understand African American culture – they choose not to out of indifference and apathy. Furthermore, when Black people behave as if Black culture is so mysterious and secret and complex that only the genetically initiated may understand it, they encourage the very indifference and apathy that isolate Black people from politically beneficial coalitions.
Frankly, you don’t need a doctorate in African American Studies to recognize that the relationship dynamic between Storm and Black Panther won’t resemble anything found on Friends or Desperate Housewives. You don’t need to read bell hooks or Eric Jerome Dickey to determine that Ororo Monroe retains her feminism while married to a Black man even though Andrea Dworkin feminism may not compute in African American circles.
The “It’s a Black thing, you wouldn’t understand” rhetoric does not assist anything.
James January 11th, 2007
“My point being, shouldn’t it be equally up to the man to know when to secede a disagreement, and do so preferably the other half of the time, for the sake of — you know — equality?” – Kate Willaert
No one says that in a healthy Black relationship, the woman must assume subservience, know her place, or understand when to defer to her husband. No one. People in heterosexual relationships have to calm down and back off when they are proven wrong. Sometimes that’s the man, sometimes that’s the woman. At any rate, the partner with logic and accuracy on their side need not break out the thunderbolts when they know they are right, no matter what political ideology they serve.
Look, I find much of this controversy patently racist; another example of White feminism attacking Black masculinity for its alleged forays into sexism because Black men provide an easily Otherized antagonist. (I’ll leave the Susan B. Anthony quotes against Black male suffrage aside for now.) The bottom line remains that anyone who finds Mr. Hudlin’s work sexist should speak up, because we all need to hear that perspective and really think about it. Unfortunately, the entire point-of-view suffers when it’s proponents completely disregard the very possibility that a Black relationship may not promote feminism the way White feminists wish to see feminism promoted. You can’t read a book expecting to see your biases about a character magically manifested on every page.
If that were possible, Batman would win every fight against Wonder Woman, even in her books. Characters in every story remain subject to the themes of that story: when I read The Hiketeia by Greg Rucka and J. G. Jones, I saw a cover with Wonder Woman’s striped boot grinding Batman’s head into the ground. I’m one of those readers who thinks that Batman can’t lose a fight he’s planned, so that jarring image struck me. But I bought that book, because it was a decent story about aggressive moral feminism that worked. Who cares if the Batman I’m used to doesn’t emerge in those pages?
Sexism in comics exists everywhere in mainstream superhero comics. After decades of prominence, Wonder Woman still saves the day dressed like Elizabeth Berkley in Showgirls. Emma Frost still plays the temptress to achieve her goals, no matter her intellect or cognitive ability. Sue Richards’ most feminist moment in years involved intercourse with Mr. Fantastic one last time before leaving her husband and children over irreconcilable political differences. Power Girl’s Kryptonian strength and basic temerity mean practically nothing because all anyone ever thinks of when you say “Power Girl” is the Kryptonian answer to Danni Ashe. Hell, we’d be hard-pressed to find a superheroine in comics today who didn’t think fighting crime meant dressing up like a extra from Hookers on the Point.
Maybe while we apply the spotlight on Mr. Hudlin’s Black Panther, we should also widen the lens to cover other depressing examples of sexism in comics. White, Black or polka dot, we all can understand that.
Loren January 11th, 2007
James, you wrote:
Unfortunately, the entire point-of-view suffers when it’s proponents completely disregard the very possibility that a Black relationship may not promote feminism the way White feminists wish to see feminism promoted. You can’t read a book expecting to see your biases about a character magically manifested on every page.
I don’t even think the argument is about A black relationship nor is it, in particular, about Black Panther and Storm. I know some people have a problem with the specific pairing, but let’s just say, for a moment, that everybody was fine with this relationship. To many, Storm is Marvel’s Wonder Woman.
Now, I could see if there was only one or two instances of Storm conceding to Black Panther, but its been a little constant and it does make Storm seem like she’s a sideline character. With the example you brought up with Wonder Woman, that was just ONE storyline amongst hundreds. I think, though, its a legitimate concern for many, given that Storm really only appears in Black Panther and does not also appear in the X-Books, there is a precedent being set up that Storm is there for Black Panther to bounce ideas off of and not vice versa. That, while even Mr. Hudlin has said that Storm is now the most powerful mutant on Earth as a result of the wedding, it doesn’t feel that way.
Kate Willaert January 11th, 2007
I’m not really commenting on the whole statement here because, in theory, I actually agree with it, BUT, just a little piece of trivia here. Bishop is not African American, he is Filipino American. He was born in Tondo, an impoverished part of Manilla, Philippines. It’s a common mistake that people make, but, he was created Filipino by his co-creator Whilce Portacio who, himself is Filipino American.
He’s perhaps partly Filipino then, but it’s also since been established that he’s at least partly Aboriginal and a direct decendant of Gateway. (Though whether that’d be “black enough” for the couple commenters here is another thing).
Kate Willaert January 11th, 2007
Unfortunately, the entire point-of-view suffers when it’s proponents completely disregard the very possibility that a Black relationship may not promote feminism the way White feminists wish to see feminism promoted.
I guess I wasn’t aware Black relationships were so inherently different than any other race’s relationships. But makes me kind of curious now (and I’m not being sarcastic). Is it okay if I ask you a few questions on that topic?
Like…how do you percieve Black relationships to be different from others? What in Black culture causes the relationship dynamic to be different? And you say Black relationships promote feminism in a different way…in what ways, in particular, does it promote feminism differently?
Yaw January 11th, 2007
To Kate:
“Like…how do you percieve Black relationships to be different from others? What in Black culture causes the relationship dynamic to be different?”
African American culture is influenced by three factors for the most part: traditional West African culture, mainstream American (Anglo-Saxon) culture and a culture of minority oppression. Short answer to a big conmplex discussion best had on another board. =D
“And you say Black relationships promote feminism in a different way…in what ways, in particular, does it promote feminism differently?”
Go to Wikipedia and look up “Womanism.” Especially authors Alice Walker and bell hooks.
“My point being, shouldn’t it be equally up to the man to know when to secede a disagreement, and do so preferably the other half of the time, for the sake of — you know — equality?”
Yes and he does. As later in the same issue when she asks to fly him he says “No I will find my own way out.” The next panel we see Storm flying him out of there and he comments that he is letting it go. One can only assume that he knew he was being stubborn since in the next panel he is doing the exact opposite of what he said he would do in the last panel unless of course there was no other way out…
I think one thing that people fail to realize is that there are more dynamics to this marriage to simply “man and wife.” He is a KING. He has been calling the shots for a long time and is use to people following. During PRiest’s run there is a scene where he yells to another male character trying to assist him fight Iron MAn, to go away. THe character insists that he helps and T’Challa yells “Obey my will!” Another character convinces the would-be helper to leave as T’Challa always knows what he’s doing and thus you should always do exactly what he says.
These are some of the dynamics that critics of this scene and marriage fail to realize or acknowledge. In one sense critics complain about failure to adhere to continuity but in the other they refuse to acknowledge these characters behavior from prior complaints. It’s hypocritical at best.
Jennifer January 11th, 2007
How do you know I’m white…?
Because people of color rarely say “how do you know I’m white?” Plus, your sense of entitlement combined with your mocking of black culture (which you find “disturbing”) tips the scales in the favor of whiteness. If you’re not white, then you are just as disturbing to me as I am to you.
The “It’s a Black thing, you wouldn’t understand” rhetoric does not assist anything.
James, I’m not here to assist anyone. It’s not my job to make white people understand why the dynamics of black relationships are different than non-blacks, especially the ones who are too busy forming a “nuh-UH!” argument in their heads before we even try to explain. You may have decided to take up the call of educating Whitey. Good for you. Me? I could care less about the relations between blacks and whites and don’t give a good goddamn if what I say “assists” this discussion or not.
James January 11th, 2007
“That, while even Mr. Hudlin has said that Storm is now the most powerful mutant on Earth as a result of the wedding, it doesn’t feel that way.” – Loren
I dunno man, does the most powerful mutant on Earth really need to raise Cain in every argument with her husband? You raise a strong point about the possibility of irrevocable “damage” to Storm’s character, but are the Black Panther issue sales that strong? I don’t have a clue how much of the comic fanbase purchases Hudlin’s work, but I think that sales would have to be pretty high to have the character-warping impact that some detractors of Mr. Hudlin’s work assume about Storm today. I’d guess that most people who’d normally read Storm in X-men comics are simply avoiding her recent exploits, mostly because I don’t think comics that focus on superheroes of color sell that well to a majority White male comic fanbase. But that’s just my guess; I’d love some information about the sales popularity of Black Panther.
James January 11th, 2007
“I guess I wasn’t aware Black relationships were so inherently different than any other race’s relationships. But makes me kind of curious now (and I’m not being sarcastic). Is it okay if I ask you a few questions on that topic?
Like…how do you percieve Black relationships to be different from others? What in Black culture causes the relationship dynamic to be different? And you say Black relationships promote feminism in a different way…in what ways, in particular, does it promote feminism differently?” – Kate Willaert
“James, I’m not here to assist anyone. It’s not my job to make white people understand why the dynamics of black relationships are different than non-blacks, especially the ones who are too busy forming a “nuh-UH!” argument in their heads before we even try to explain. You may have decided to take up the call of educating Whitey. Good for you. Me? I could care less about the relations between blacks and whites and don’t give a good goddamn if what I say “assists” this discussion or not.” – Jennifer
Kate and Jennifer, I’m not here to educate anyone. I’m not a teacher of any kind. I’ve never even been involved in a heterosexual Black relationship, so I have no clue what those internal dynamics are. I simply recognize the possibility that cultural deviations from mainstream American culture may persist among the most intimate of Black social connections, and that any writer may draw upon these differences to create interesting fiction.
That being said Jennifer, while I recognize that you don’t have to care, I think that defenders of Mr. Hudlin’s Black Panther can’t expect to terminate criticism by characterizing race as an impregnable barrier between people, even when it’s true. Mr. Hudlin’s writing a comic for mass consumption, not for a small ideologically homogenous sect of Black America deemed worthy of reading its sacred pages. We don’t need anymore brown paper bag tests in this country.
For me it doesn’t matter if non-Blacks attempt to understand Black culture, only that they recognize that they should not expect people to have identical social responses to their own. Some feminist fangirls who dislike Mr. Hudlin’s Storm expect a woman with her history in her position to respond to possible spousal sexism with aggression and conflict. Mostly, these people are not invested in the ideal Black masculinity theme of Black Panther, and in my opinion, never really saw Storm as Black before. I suppose the silver hair, blue eyes and Nordic supermodel stature can make stuff confusing.
So Mr. Hudlin’s writing shocks race back into Storm’s characterization, and comic readers simply need time to adjust. Many do not wish to change. Loren, this is what I thought of when you reminded me that people consider Storm “Marvel’s Wonder Woman” – that for most of her history, Storm passed for White in White readers’ minds. White feminist fangirls deemed her acceptably “feminist” given her gender, leadership skill, and all-around kick-ass nature. (That’s 80’s mohawk with the Sid Vicious leather works wonders for feminist acceptance.) I honestly think that the feminist detractors of Mr. Hudlin’s work would make stronger arguments if they dealt with this possible racial disingenuousness.
Jennifer January 11th, 2007
I think that defenders of Mr. Hudlin’s Black Panther can’t expect to terminate criticism by characterizing race as an impregnable barrier between people, even when it’s true.
I’m not saying that at all, James. I’m all for open dialogue. However, when white folks like Kate simply refuse to acknowledge that there ARE cultural differences between blacks and whites, that’s where I jump off the train. I’m just not in the mood to fingerspell shit to someone who will undoubtedly use the terms “colorblind”, “Dr. King”, “my best friend is…” and when all else fails, will resort to crying.
BTW, the sales from #21 to #22 jumped BP up from #83 to #50, and #21, #22 and #23 all sold out at Diamond and will be reprinted as Black Panther: War Crimes. This title, no matter what Hudlin bashers say, has never been a top seller. Detractors try to make it sound as if BP was a top ten seller and Hudlin just came along and f**ked it all up, but that’s never been the case. That being said, I seem to recall the last run selling about 25-30K. At the absolute WORST, Hudlin is doing no worse than the last writer (C. Priest).
Kate Willaert January 11th, 2007
Some feminist fangirls who dislike Mr. Hudlin’s Storm expect a woman with her history in her position to respond to possible spousal sexism with aggression and conflict. Mostly, these people are not invested in the ideal Black masculinity theme of Black Panther, and in my opinion, never really saw Storm as Black before.
You almost make it sound like “possible spousal sexism” is an inherent part of supporting “ideal Black masculinity.” Is spousal sexism something a woman is supports ideal Black masculinity needs to simply put up with as a “necessary evil” or something? Because Storm has a history of being so strong and commanding, it seems out of character for her to put with a sexist partner at all…she commands more respect than that. I don’t see how her being Black or not has anything to do with that (or is putting up with sexism for the sake of ideal Black masculinity the cultural thing for Black women to do?).
Jennifer January 12th, 2007
(or is putting up with sexism for the sake of ideal Black masculinity the cultural thing for Black women to do?).
That’s EXACTLY what it is, Kate. I’d expound further, but my man needs his dinner and a blow job. As soon as he gives me permission, I’ll come back and type more.
Lord, pleeeeeeeeeeeasedontletmecussoutnowhitefolktoday…
Shaun G. January 12th, 2007
You know I really don’t see how this whole argument about BP and Storm’s relationship is some kind of “It’s a Black Thing you wouldn’t understand” moment. I think the end of post 70 explains it without race even being an issue.
Loren January 12th, 2007
James,
I dunno man, does the most powerful mutant on Earth really need to raise Cain in every argument with her husband? You raise a strong point about the possibility of irrevocable “damage” to Storm’s character, but are the Black Panther issue sales that strong?
No, not every argument. But, I think there’d be a little more of chance given if Storm raised Cain at least once.
The sales of Black Panther, I believe, have been better since the Wedding and its Civil War tie-ins. But, once this is over, I can imagine it sliding again.
I think if Storm were still also appearing in one or more of the X-titles in addition to this book, I think there might be less concern because, at least, there’d be other outlets where she could shine. But, right now, she just seems to be an adviser to Black Panther. Now, I know that everybody says that’s the nature of their relationship, but when this is the only book that she appears in and she’s always a consoler or an adviser, we don’t get to see her be the true leader that she is.
Adan Jimenez January 12th, 2007
“We don’t need anymore brown paper bag tests in this country.” – James
Now that is some damn fine piece of rhetoric, sir, and while I do not agree with most of your points, I can honestly say that I respect you a great deal. If you ever find yourself in New York, I’d like to buy you a drink.
James January 12th, 2007
Adan, I’ve had a great time in this discussion. Lots of strong points all around. Next time I’m in NYC, I’ll definitely look you up.
I never turn down a good comics debate.
Loren Collins January 12th, 2007
The sales of Black Panther, I believe, have been better since the Wedding and its Civil War tie-ins. But, once this is over, I can imagine it sliding again.
Sales skyrocketed for #18’s Wedding/Civil War tie-in, but two issues later sales had dropped all the way back down to the level they were at before the Wedding storyline began.
Initial sales for #21 stayed at that level until it was realized that it was an effective CW tie-in, at which point sales shot back up.
CW has been a license to print money for Marvel. Rich Johnston shows how merely being a CW tie-in has frequently caused sales on a given issue to jump by 50% or more.
James January 12th, 2007
“You almost make it sound like “possible spousal sexism” is an inherent part of supporting “ideal Black masculinity.” Is spousal sexism something a woman is supports ideal Black masculinity needs to simply put up with as a “necessary evil” or something? Because Storm has a history of being so strong and commanding, it seems out of character for her to put with a sexist partner at all…she commands more respect than that. I don’t see how her being Black or not has anything to do with that (or is putting up with sexism for the sake of ideal Black masculinity the cultural thing for Black women to do?). ” – Kate Willaert
I think much of my response to this has already been covered in my previous responses to this thread, Kate. I don’t concede that Mr. Hudlin’s Black Panther depicts a sexist T’Challa, nor do I concede that Storm’s response to her husband’s arrogant standoffishness and commanding presence exposes out-of-character female subservience from Storm. It’s just as possible that other influences on these characters, some racial, some regal, may explain their behavior.
In general, I think the sales information Jennifer and Loren related may explain much of this controversy. Loren brings up a great point about how Storm’s absence from other X-books may exacerbate this controversy, while Jennifer shows that Black Panther’s doing decent, but not stellar sales numbers. My thought? The political undercurrent of this book may turn off some readers, but they probably weren’t buying too many Black Panther comics anyway. I’m not so against encountering Storm in what amounts to a niche book, but I’d certainly like to see more of her in the X-comics as well.
Anonymouse January 12th, 2007
I don’t really like Jennifer’s definition of black feminism… a lot of black feminist texts I’ve read, like Djanet Sears Harlem Duet, have a lot in common with mainstream feminism, yet look at the perspective of the dual oppression- being a woman and being black, as well as the oppression within the civil rights movement of black women……. It reminds me a lot of the plot of Harlem Duet, about Othello’s wife, in modern Harlem, who has to deal with her husband cheating on her, after years of supporting him as a “good woman”, putting him first, as her life crumbles around her, her dreams of education and stability in danger while he pursues his selfish choices in the name of being a strong black man.
Anonymouse January 12th, 2007
Mind you, there’s obviously multiple views out there- but the fact is that it’s not limited to “stand by your man”.
All this discussion reminded me of a Pam Noles blog post from the summer-
http://andweshallmarch.typepad.com/and_we_shall_march/2006/07/persistence_ove.html Where when a black woman questioned about the poor treatment of black women within fandom, and by male black creators, she was ridiculed, sexually harrassed, told basically “Move Aside And Let The Men Come Through” and later called an idiot by Hudlin in assorted online venues.
This quote says a LOT about this conversation to me—-
“Either just before or after the 47-year-old woman stormed away from the mic, Hudlin said that he doesn’t feel entirely comfortable writing women and he would prefer a woman write women’s stories. “
Anonymouse January 13th, 2007
Anonymouse January 13th, 2007
http://www.inblogs.net/ragnell/2006/07/why-reginald-hudlin-should-never-be.html
Here’s another interesting link associated with this topic. The quote that started it-
“”Why did you choose T’Challa’s [Black Panther's] first love over his ex-fiancee, Monica Lynne?
RH: Because Superman should be with Wonder Woman, not Lois Lane…”"
Jennifer January 13th, 2007
Jennifer has never given a definition of black feminism, wee mousie. Do not put words in Jennifer’s mouth.
Jennifer January 13th, 2007
Wee mousie, you mentioned that Hudlin called the woman in question an “idiot”. Well…she sounds like one.
There were many women who asked interesting questions at both panels; she was not one of them. She was a whiny nutcase who bragged about her knowledge of comics but didn’t seem to have any; hates one of the most positive black female superheroes in comics for characteristics that the character doesn’t have (but the speaker seemed to have in spades). She seemed like a parody – the angry black woman complaining about stereotypes of angry black women.
Not exactly the kind of person I want in my corner, speaking on my behalf. Way to present both sides, Mousie.
http://glyphsonline.blogspot.com/2006/07/more-about-black-panel.html
Anonymouse January 13th, 2007
That’s entirely Hudlin’s point of view. And dismissing…. how will you feel when he dismisses your concerns someday?
Oh wait, you’re his employee.
Given Alice Walker was one of the founding authors behind the womanist movement, I seriously doubt her or any of her characters would be all about “but my man needs his dinner and a blow job.” as black feminism. The Colour Purple was all about the triumph of it’s characters above being subservient to their men, about becoming their own people, leaving the sexist male lead in his home all alone, while Celie makes a life of her own and is reunited with her children and sister [things taken away by her "father" figure] and rediscovers what real love is. Yet she also shows a different love story between Harpo and Sofia. I’m probably barely summarizing it, but I’ve seen the movie a million times [own widescreen vhs :)], and have read the book, and what you describe being black as is very much so NOT what this book is about. There’s more views out there then yours, from very valid sources. Womanism to Walker is about overcoming Racism AND Sexism.
http://www.seeingblack.com/2003/x022803/walker.shtml
http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interviews/full/index.cfm?author_number=314
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/generalfiction/story/0,6000,442539,00.html#article_continue
Anonymouse January 13th, 2007
“Way to present both sides, Mousie.”
Well, I’m just trying to present the side that you had been ignoring while presenting your narrow views. Both Sides Now, y’know. As a BET employee, I’m sure you’re doing Mr.President proud.
And Pam Noles kicks ass.
Anonymouse January 13th, 2007
PS- Loren, I hope you don’t mind my posts. Just thought I should offer a counterpoint
Jennifer January 13th, 2007
As a BET employee, I’m sure you’re doing Mr.President proud.
Mr. Hudlin and I do get a great deal of LOLZ from this blog entry, but technically, I am not an employee of BET. Please do not refer to me as one.
I have no opinion about Pam Noles, as I am unfamiliar with her work, nor do I see what her opinion about a comic book panel has to do with this discussion. Wait…let me guess. Pam Noles is black, and therefore, some black chick disagreeing with some other black chick somehow levels this discussion? Imagine that, two black women with differing opinions on things. Next thing you know, you’ll say that we don’t all vote Democrat.
Loren January 13th, 2007
Anonymouse, feel free to post away. As I’ve said before, any kind of discussion is a good thing. I’ve just chosen not to engage Jennifer in this particular discussion as she’s not coming from a place of engagement, but constant attack. But, if you want to, feel free…
Jennifer January 13th, 2007
Oh, Loren. Thank you for sparing me your wrath. Oh, frabjous day! Callooh, callay!
Anonymouse January 14th, 2007
Hmm… looks like it’s down to talking to us like small children. Usually that mean she’s played out. Thanks for posting a different view on Storm, Loren, and I hope Marvel gets the message.
Jennifer January 14th, 2007
Anonymouse, I’ll never be played out as long as I have little mice like you following me around, taking notes. :)
And Loren, if you want to be punked out on your own blog, that’s on you. Keep your ass in the corner, for all I care. But don’t act like you’re doing me any favors. Just admit that you have nothing to say in counter and be finished with it – especially since you have nothing to say that I’m actually interested in reading.
the Unknown Soldier January 14th, 2007
Against my better judgement, I thought I should put my .02. This whole thing smacks of a great deal of hypocrisy on the part of Hudlin’s detractors. Now, as some background info on my position, I don’t have any particular fondness for Hudlin’s B.P. I think its alright and does a good job of showcasing a character that has sometimes been underrepresented. On the other hand, I’m a big fan of Storm and I don’t really see why all the white feminists have crawled out of the woodwork to defend her honour only after she marries Black Panther. THere was no outrage when she was depowered and got that outrageous punk look, no outrage at the years in which she has been drawn as basically a dar skinned white woman. None whatsoever. So to all of a sudden begin to whine, bitch and moan seems a bit disingenuous and smacks of “me first” fan entitlement.
Jennifer January 14th, 2007
No outrage when she was thrown to some punk ass surfer twit…no outrage when Claremont referred to her as “damaged goods” (twice!)…no outrage when she was seen to be flirting, more or less, with both Wolverine AND Nightcrawler, two dear friends that she wouldn’t dream of hurting…no outrage over that wack-ass weak wannabe lesbian pseudofantasy “The Arena”…
Loren January 14th, 2007
Jennifer, no wrath here. I fully admit I have nothing to say. You wouldn’t listen anyway. You have your mind made up and all I can say is “good on you.” I respect a person with convictions. But, any little thing anybody says that you disagree with, you shoot down. So, yes, I have nothing to say to you. If somebody else wants to have a conversation, that’s a different story.
Loren January 14th, 2007
And, Jennifer, just so I can have the 100th comment and because I’m in a particularly cranky mood, don’t throw stones and glass houses when you declare that everybody else is pretending to be something they’re not. You say you’re not a BET employee and, perhaps you’re not given monetary exchange, but you do manage a sizable portion of their Web site as their Pop Blogger…so, you do represent the company in some way.
Loren January 14th, 2007
Oh, and one more thing, because I’m that cranky…you wrote:
Mr. Hudlin and I do get a great deal of LOLZ from this blog entry
You know what? I admit that I might have been a little harsh in this entry (it was what people were discussing), but when Mr. Hudlin made his comments, as defensive and mean spirited as they were, I tried to reach out, apologize if I had insulted him as it wasn’t my intent, actually agreed that my own inner racism might have been in play while still holding on to my feminist viewpoint on this issue and wrote a blog entry about it (I admit that I’m not perfect). But, your statement just makes me think how Mr. Hudlin had chosen to throw my good will in my face and sent you here to basically shoot down everything anybody says that disagrees with you. There’s more than one way of looking at this issue and, personally, I think we can all agree to disagree. Jennifer, I’m not your enemy here, but you sure seem to want to make me one.
Alright, maybe I did have more to say…
Anonymouse January 14th, 2007
It’s true— whenever Hudlin’s reviewed in negative fashion, Jennifer often shows up. See Newsarama, and she recently got kicked out of Comixfan after not posting there for 3 years since her initial banning. It’s almost as if she’s put upon to do it…….
His forum is full of posts, including a thread http://hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=1228.0 that says a lot about her personal agenda. [which includes a quote from this discussion, without mentioning the context, and the things she had said]
Oh, and when Storm lost her powers, it proved to be a maturing experience for her, and she kicked Cyclops ass and maintained her leadership position while he retreated to Alaska.
The punkass surfer was admittedly a fling, the character being a younger man she hooked up with at random in Austalia for some fun. How’s that for a “sexless” portrayal? And Storm has long histories with Wolverine and Nightcrawler, and even married Wolverine in several alternate realities/futures [What If? w/their daughter, X-men:The End, and the X-men TAS version of Age of Apocalypse].
As for the “lesbian” scenes in Arena, again, they disprove your constant quoting of her depictions as sexless, and it’s not like she didn’t have a history of being an adventurous gal— her history with Yukio is long established. And even then, they’re very mildy suggestive, and not actual lesbian moments.
Jennifer January 15th, 2007
Cowardly mousie, if I’m banned from X-Fan, it’s news to me. And I rarely respond on Hudlin’s reviews at all, anywhere. I talk about the book, but that’s not rushing in to “defend” anything. I’ve had criticisms about BP, but unlike you, punk mousie, I discuss those criticisms on Hudlin’s board.
Loren, I take great offense at the thought that Mr. Hudlin would “send me” to do anything. I represent my damn self – not Mr. Hudlin, not HEF and not BET. Since he’s been here speaking himself, why would he ’send’ me to do anything? Even for you, Loren, that’s low. So I’ll throw whatever whenever and wherever I damn well please.
Yaw January 15th, 2007
I love it when Hudlin detractors focus the rather harsh tone of Jennifer’s posts and NOT the actual evidence presented in her and/or others’ posts.
I still can’t find anyone who can argue that the scene in BP #19 is unprecedented and not reflective of both characters’ past histories.
Anonymouse January 15th, 2007
Mabye if it wasn’t for her “harsh tone” people might take others posts more seriously.
http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=38704&page=49 Stuff like her X-Fan shenigans do not help promote positive aspects. Simply discussing the comics in an intelligent manner, without insulting others couldn’t hurt.
I personally think Mr.Hudlin should take the criticism to heart- mabye have Storm take a more prominent role, mabye share her with the X-men titles to appease X-men fans. Instead of automatically going on the defense, mabye try reaching out to fans. It wouldn’t hurt.
Otherwise, it just leaves a lot of hurt feelings and bad karma amongX-men fans, which is never good.
Jennifer January 15th, 2007
Sorry, punk mousie, but I can’t take credit for that one. I mean, you can sit there and say it’s me until your head explodes if it makes you feel better, but that doesn’t make it any less false.
I personally think Mr.Hudlin should take the criticism to heart- mabye have Storm take a more prominent role, mabye share her with the X-men titles to appease X-men fans. Instead of automatically going on the defense, mabye try reaching out to fans. It wouldn’t hurt.
He doesn’t have to. See, that’s the thing that pisses off people like you, punk mousie. People like Mr. Hudlin – and me, to a much lesser extent – can say and do whatever the hell he wants and will STILL be successful, no matter how much people like you try to throw salt in his game. You can try to discredit him until you’re blue in the face, but he – and I – won’t skip a beat when it comes to doing whatever. And you know how much your wrath is going to matter to his success – and mine, for that matter? Why, as much as it does now. The world doesn’t listen to anonymice, punk mousie. Know your place in this world, and live accordingly.
Adan Jimenez January 16th, 2007
Actually, the world does listen to anonymice.
They’re usually more intelligent and better reasoned than loudmouthed jerks who insist on attacking everybody else on the thread.
Loren January 16th, 2007
People like Mr. Hudlin – and me, to a much lesser extent – can say and do whatever the hell he wants and will STILL be successful, no matter how much people like you try to throw salt in his game.
Lord, you are a strange bird, Jennifer. What a completely paranoid statement. I don’t think anybody out there is asking, “How can we make BET President Reginald Hudlin and BET Pop Blogger and Harpo’s Juke Joint Creator Jennifer Daniels less successful?” People are criticizing a piece of Mr. Hudlin’s work…something that some people agree with and some people, like yourself, don’t. And, you know what, that’s okay because people disagree all the time. If Mr. Hudlin stands by his work, great. That’s pretty much it, Jennifer. But, nobody is talking about taking you down. Sheesh…
Jennifer January 16th, 2007
Adan, if you believe that, then please meet me this weekend in Brooklyn. Bring a truck and your wallet.
Loren, could you show me where I said than anyone is going (or even trying) to take Mr. Hudlin (or me) down? A direct quote would be nice. This is a very long thread and it’s not interesting enough to actually read again. BTW, what you call “paranoia” (at least you didn’t say “angry”; two points for you), I merely call an observation. Just like what you call a thought-out blog entry celebrating diversity, I call a thin excuse to bitch about a book that I can’t even tell if you’re reading or not. Perception, Loren. Perception.
(And for the record, no one here has the power to “take me down”, so to speak. God know the punk mice have been trying to ever since anonymous telephone calls to my campus rag & anonymous emails to my old Africana bosses…and here I am at BET.com years later, still popping shit with no repercussions whatsoever.)
Anonymouse January 16th, 2007
http://wiki.fandomwank.com/index.php/Stormfreak_Of_The_Night
That was at the height of maturity, I assume.
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/2763024.html I mean, you’ve never stopped to think that mabye if you were nicer to people, you wouldn’t have to worry about being “taken down”.
Oh wait, Livejournal took you down 3 times. [well, not counting previuos LJ's]
Anonymouse January 16th, 2007
By the way, I do feel sorry for you Jenn, that’s a disgusting thing to happen to a person. But it’s not as if you have a clean slate yourself. I hope you get the help you need someday, and work through your issues.
Also, with this entire conversation you’ve completely belittled and overlooked the other important events Loren focused on in his article.
Jennifer January 16th, 2007
Awww, thank you Mousie! And I hope that one day you’ll grow a pair and learn how to sign your name like the boys and girls with real opinions, as opposed to being a pathetic little co-signer running around the ‘net with threads from comic book message boards – and with the wrong information at that. You got a beef with me, punk mousie, you know where to find me. Everyone here does.
Loren January 16th, 2007
Jennifer,
In this statement:
People like Mr. Hudlin – and me, to a much lesser extent – can say and do whatever the hell he wants and will STILL be successful, no matter how much people like you try to throw salt in his game.
you imply that what people are trying to do here is take you all down…that whatever people say, you all will STILL be successful. There’s an implication that people don’t want you to be successful. And, in that implication, people want to take you down. That’s where I got that from. If that’s not what you meant, that’s a different story. That’s what I label “paranoia,” not the fact that you disagree with me. It’s your tone, not what you’re saying. Believe me, through these 112 comments, I’ve seen people disagree and bring up REALLY good points…one that I haven’t thought about before and it was great food for thought…people like James and Yaw. They disagree with what I and others have said and I respect that. But, I feel you’ve come here just to hurl names at everybody. That’s the difference I’ve been feeling in your participation in this thread.
Also, I own all 23 issues of Reginald Hudlin’s Black Panther. I admit that I hadn’t read any of it UNTIL Uncanny X-Men Annual #1, but I have bought all the back issues. If you read any of my actual blog or any of my previous comments, you’d realize that and that, if I offended anybody with this article, being the end-all-and-be-all of diversity in comics because I forgot something or offended, that I’m genuinely sorry. But, c’mon, Jennifer…to say that the whole thing was a thin veil JUST to “whine” about Black Panther…you want to talk about low…then, there.
Jennifer January 16th, 2007
Loren, I don’t imply a damn thing. If I thought that you, in all your comic blogging glory, could do a damn thing to “take me down” and were actively trying to do so, I would just say so. In an email. In private. Give me an effin’ break.
I don’t care what you think about my participation in this thread, Loren – it’s your thread and your blog and if you don’t like what I have to say, I’m sure there’s a nice little admin panel you can use to fix that, geez. But if you scroll way-the-hell-up, I’m sure you’ll see that I was participating in this thread just like everyone else, until you allowed the cowardly mousie to pull that “Jenn’s been banned from here there and everywhere” shit – something that’s not only public knowledge but I bring up my damn self on a regular basis. Not my fault I had to step in and deliver the boot-to-ass that you never did. Hey, it’s not my blog so I could care less, son. All you had to do was steer the convo back on topic and remind the punk mousie that the topic is your blog, not any legendary flame wars I pulled off back in 2004 or wheneverdahell. You refused to do that. So here we are. Don’t like it? Look within.
Jon Haehnle January 16th, 2007
ok for the record, this isn’t technically loren’s blog but a post republished from loren’s blog here on pcs. so the comment moderation — or lack thereof — is not his reponsibility but rather the pcs admins. and on behalf of said site admins, i apologize for being late to the party…
i do agree this thread has gotten way off-topic — so let’s cease with the personal stuff and get things back on topic please.
please note that if we have to start deleting posts or shutting threads down this will consequently force us to make people register just to post comments, which we currently don’t do
thank you,
-jon haehnle, pcs producer/designer
Laura Hudson January 19th, 2007
I don’t know where Jennifer came up with this whole “mousie” thing, but it’s made me visualize the last 30 comments as though they were being narrated by characters from Mouse Guard.
It’s a lot more entertaining that way.
blackcyclops January 29th, 2007
I like how this conversation went…I’m new to this whole blogging thing. I post mostly on UXN and AHH. But I will say that I agree more with James then Jennifer.
Jennifer you seem to be in a constant state of attack, and almost demeaning others in some aspects. While James managed to get a point across, without talking down to anyone and still seeing their points. And before you say anything about me not knowing about “being black”, if the name doesn’t say enough I’d gladly give you my email and send u a pic of me holding a notecard with my name on it. Because I am black and know all too-well the “black experience”.
I did like the article Loren, and I’ve really been working on my own.
Raefe Mahadeo January 31st, 2007
To address the issue of the gay character freedomring’s death I believe the reason he was killed unlike other teen/young adult characters kyle rayner, spiderman or speedball is he was a minority therefore making his death unexpected since they are valued more than the legions of athletic white people with the same haircut(gwen stacy and mj could be twins with 1 having a dye job)and death, unlike, say, two years ago, doesn’t mean jackshit at marvel. He may very well come back within 5 years. Its comparable to alex wilder in runaways(I wont spoil the plot twist for new readers)but I did find it enriched the character and was likely done because minority characters deaths are very unexpected(excluding Goliaths death in civil war, dissappointing the wife beater should have died instead). I think there’s no substance to the new batgirl and is just meant to capitalize on the success of the L Word(love that show), i hope i am proven wrong. dc is just enacting change for the sake of change for money, it has nothing to do with racial understanding/acceptance/reprsentation.i would also like to point out that the personality profile fo freedom ring has become unpopular at marvile:sspeedball an emo bondage sado masochist leaving even me, a copletely white canadian, saying crazy cracker,gravity is dead, kyle rayner was turned into a hal jordan clone almost as lame as said character and spiderman and spiderman often loses personal/physical struggles, is severly depressed and in is often brought to the brink of murder(ultimate spidey cliche, likely why the characters book hit an all time sales low and was cancelled in the late 90s)they are no longer happy gp lucky teens but the opposite taken way to far most of the time. As for black characters in comics they are incredibly underrepresented.blade should be an avenger,cardiac should be dusted off and used and as shown in early exiles issues,I think the late twenties, moses magnum can be a great villian.my opinion of hudlin as a writer is the same as that of bendis and claremont currently:he’s a good idea man andat the long term planning aspect of the book, but veryaverage or poor with dialogue. I think him stating that people were just pissed about storm marrying a black man was just an attempt to discredit his detractors and not consider there viewpoint though this could just reflect a fear of racism towards himself and black protagonists.I feel jenn was insulted first and while some may find her tone harsh even posters claiming to extend an olive branch gave backhanded insults.I would be interested to hear your thoughts on my comments, jenn. I would also like to say the lack of webslang overuse is very refreshing.
Raefe Mahadeo January 31st, 2007
also, i dont think hudlin the worst panther writer. geoff johns Avengers showcased a panther that was untrusting, manipulative, racist and such a prick he made namor look like princess di. he also relagated the character to being a black batman knockoff. The fact is if there was a larger selection of mainstream black comic writers a writer of immeasurable talent would likely be writing panther and getting into the top twenty books. I will compare it to kanye west, who while not a bad rapper, is terribly unoriginal by sampeling other artist music to add to his own constantly. he is the only overhyped rapper in the rap industry currently so people buy into the thought he’s comparable to death row records artists. hudlin is not the best black comic writer just the most mainstream one. I do not feel hudlin was given an artist as talented as bendis or millar which at the very least shows ignorance of an emerging comic writer who needs the talents far more than the fanfav writers. Marvel also admittedly uses creators like hudlin(from outside of comics) to add an air of respectibility to comics to the world at large and draw in new readers. Marvel owes these writers a lot like descent promotion/resources. Hudlin obviously has a fanbase and what i dislike about his work may be seen as his greatest strengths to them. I would also like to point out a lot of great books get overlooked. peter davids captain marvel from the “nothing to lose” storyline to the end of “crazy like a fox” was, in my opinion, niel gaiman’s Sandman quaility work, but was often overlooked in Wizard and on the internet. I would suggest to anyone to give it a read, its quality work. To Mr.Hudlin, whom I know to have a very extensive comic collection, have you read these terrific stories and what is your opinion of them. To give you an idea of my tastes, my favorite shows are Fullmetal Alchemist, Southpark, supernatural, Angel, Farscape, Battlestar galactica(2003-present), jon stewart, boston legal, 24, nip/tuck(my absolute fav), the shield, sopranos seasons 1-5 and rescue me. I’ve also recently become a fan of prisonbreak and alias.
as for comics its battle angel alita, strangers in paradise, powers, supreme power(Max version),all of brian k. vaughans comic work, civil war, chynna clugston majors manga work, astonishing x-men, invisibles(favorite series ever), peter milligans x-force and Neil Gaimans sandman. My favorite band is the distillers and favorite movie is Rules of Attraction. I also recently saw tim burton Corpse Bride and thought it was the most beautiful movie I had ever seen, which I guess sounds twisted. I also think its ironic the x-men are supposed to represent minorities but of a very large cast are mostly white. I’m curious if you could imagine the main X-men’s race as anything other than caucasian, like when psylocke went from british to asian.
Raefe Mahadeo February 1st, 2007
as a side note about Panther and storms relationship I would like to point out the marriage is not unprecedented; they were married in earth x. Also, wanting to have children dosen’t make a marriage loveless.
Raefe Mahadeo February 1st, 2007
looking over hudlon katrina comments I feel the fact the city wasn’t littered with the wealthy as well as bush’s lack of a conscience(sociopath) as well as his administrations incompetence and preoccupation with war profitering are the reasons the situation being handled so badly. I’m not saying he isn’t racist, i’m saying a lot of things make him an asshole.
Raefe Mahadeo February 1st, 2007
p.s. when is boondocks seaason 2 coming. i figure hudlin would probably know with his involvement in the show.
blackcyclops February 2nd, 2007
I like where you coming from Raefe Mahadeo…
Raefe Mahadeo February 3rd, 2007
thanks. the one thing that’s turned me off of hudlins writing(and if you think i’m wrong tell me) is that it seems to focus solely on race and thats how a characters worth is defined in his books. if this is the case i think it about as superficial as judging someone on thier wealth or sexuality. I think the idea that gambit couldn’t be there because of the blood of apocalypse storyline is crap because marvel often says not everything is happening at the exact same time when their mega events collide(ex.dissasembeled 1 and planet x). gambit was only excluded because of his race. i think hudlin wanted to write a black version of the superfriends(flawless heroes who always save the day) forgetting or not knowing the show suffered from the characters not being flawed and always winning(as i understand it). From the katrina issue I think he got at least blades character right but i was surprised he didn’t use cloak and dagger, since it was supposed to be a meeting of high profile black heroes and I think cloak qualifies. maybe he thought the drug based origin sent a bad message, simply didn’t like the character or isn’t a fan of interracial couples(this isn’t an attack on hudlins character i just do not know if he feels this way or not). i think hudlin has a fair understanding of the panthers character and treating him as a king who has to consider the political ramiifications of his actions elevates him above the standard batman knockoff image of the character. there are people who think priest screwed the pooch because his series got cancelled but i think taking a charcter a lot of people saw as 2nd or even 3rd rate, giving them their first series and making it last five years is something special. hell you couldn’t do that with any of the x-men and they were the top selling comic for a quarter century. you think rogue or the beast would last five years solo. hell, gambit could only last two and he’s nearly as popular as wolverine. I think priests work on panther is comparable to john byrne’s she-hulk in the sense that both creators established characters that were relativley seen as playing second fiddle to the avengers “big three” and established them as endearing solo characters.
Tiff March 8th, 2007
Don’t know why it took me so long to read this but wow, I LOVED the stuff about Storm and Black Panther. It touched on why I wasn’t over the moon about the wedding (seriously where did this romance come from?) and why I absolutely hate the way Storm is protrayed in the book. She gets to be a “strong” woman only when it’s good for her husband.
Tiff March 8th, 2007
Oh jeez looking back at the comments (Jennifer is Stormfreak, that makes so much sense now!) I think I’m just going to drop BP. I was already hating the book anyway (which I only read for Storm).
Oh and I’m black btw.
Jennifer March 24th, 2007
Blackcyclops, I’m not interested in your race, or the race of anyone else’s. Are you trying to imply that people of the same race don’t have different opinions, which makes you some kind of radical Negro? Yeesh, I hope not.
brentboy March 26th, 2007
It’s good to see all this juicy debate on BLACK PANTHER and STORM. What amazes me is that a lot of these discussions show that a lot of CAUCASIAN people have very little insight on black people or the culture. Outside of HIP-HOP,GANGSTA RAP and how well we do in the SPORTS WORLD. We as comic readers, movie lovers and t.v. junkies are used to seeing Mostly the way WHITE PEOPLE are traditonanly portrayed: Thats in ROMANCE,INTERACTIONS, THE HERO, THE POLITICIAN,THE VILLIAN, THE DAMSEL IN DISTRESS,THE COWBOY (and indian) ETC,etc,etc,etc. My point to my fellow fanboys,that despite the obvious of other cultures in our country and the world,WHITE IMAGES are still the standard image and the ultimate representation of the RED BLOODED AMERICAN. SO: When REGGIE HUDLIN and DWAYNE MCDUFFIE come in and don’t put out what we’re used to seeing in COMERCIAL MEDIA and ESPECIALLY COMICS there is this obvious opposition from ”WHITE FANBOYS”. I’m sorry it’s true. Example: When the JUSTICE LEAGUE animated series was introduced BRUCE TIMM and other creators got a lot of static for using JOHN STEWART instead of HAL JORDAN or KYLE as GREEN LANTERN. I for one was happy at least one hero was non white. Comics are moving in new directions. I praise DC and MARVEL for trying to reach black,latino,indian and asian kids. To my white fanboys 80% of superheroes are white. That doesn’t stop blacks,latino etc from buying comics. White people are accustomed to seeing there images constantly in your faces. WE: do not have that luxury. So if a comic is different from what your used to why freak out about it. As a BLACK MAN i’ve been reading superheroes that are white forever and i’m not bitchin’.So,why are you?
brentboy March 26th, 2007
Some people asked “WHAT BLACK LOVE IS”. Basically, It’s showing how black men and black women love and interact with each other. In terms of dialogue,tradition. The same can be the same for other races. The way love is shown with white couples is not necessarily the same with other races. It’s kinda hard to explain this so i’m going to name movies with romantic love scenes featuring black couples.”LADY SINGS THE BLUES and MAHOGANY with Billy dee willaiams and Diana ross. ”MO BETTER BLUES” with Denzel Washington and his female co-stars.”DIARY OF A MAD BLACK WOMAN” Shemar Moore and Kimberly Elise. For that matter how about ”THE COSBY” show. There were countless episodes where there was Love and Romance between a BILL COSBY and PHYLISHA RASHAD. At that time they were the only Black husband and wife that showed positive images of”BLACK LOVE”. For me that’s the best way I can explain it. If you don;t see movies featuring AFRICAN AMERICANS IN LOVE SCENES then maybe you won’t get it. I could name more movies but I think these sre good examples. Black love can’t really be explained when you think about it,but there are displays of it in movies and or television. It’s all about what you are aware of and what you notice or pay attention to.
Jennifer April 3rd, 2007
Just because this quote of Hudlin’s pisses off white folks sooooo much…
“T’Challa and Ororo! Now black AND f*cking!”
